Advice to improve my game.

[JJ Ng]

Hi,

I've watched all videos suggested and reviewed the feedback by everyone and here are a few points I got:
1. There are 3 main factors to lift backspin balls:
+ Racket angle (open)
+ Swing path (upward)
+ Swing speed/acceleration
They compensate each other. Ex. If swing speed is low then racket angle needs to be more open and/or swing path is more upward
2. Acceleration at contact point
3. Relax
4. Use legs, hip, body, upper arm, fore arm, wrist, fingers in sync to get the most power, like throwing a frisbee or whipping a rope.
5. Over-exaggerate in practice to feel and fix.

And this is my product ^^. I tried to relax much more and use more forearm on forehand. Does it look better?

@pingpongpaddy : Thanks a lot for great suggestion. I started to focus more on consistency, placement, footwork and recovery as suggested by many others in this thread too.

Thank you!

Ok, not to make things more confusing. To me, Blahness is saying you need a "neutralising" contact to loop backspin effectively. My argument is, if you can relax and whip the ball, that is the "neutralising" contact you are looking for.

So when you say, "If swing speed is low then racket angle needs to be more open and/or swing path is more upward," that is a dangerous concept. When you loop backspin, there is no such a thing as a slow or low swing speed. In order to neutralise that backspin, your swing speed and acceleration have to be high.

If you swing at the backspin ball with low swing speed and an open racket angle, only two things will happen: one, the ball will go into the net, or two you are hitting the ball underneath the ball now.

I see a lot of players getting into that bad habit. Because their swing speed is low, their paddle is so open now, that they are literally hitting the bottom of the backspin ball to get it over the net. Phil, by the way, you are not doing that. I am referring to some other players in general.

The only real way to loop against a backspin is fast racket speed from acceleration.

Like I said it before. My Chinese coach growing up taught to me to loop using the top sheet only with forearm. When I got really good at it, after six months, he told me to use my forearm, shoulder, waist and body to hit through the ball and snap my body. I was confused as heck for the next six months until I finally got it. So he taught me how to brush the ball for six months. Then he spent the following six months to relearn how to loop by engaging the sponge in a FORWARD and up motion. No more just going up and up. It is foreward and up.

And when you figure that out, that is when you finally learn how to loop drive or loop kill a backspin ball.

Just look at some of the top players playing against a chopper. They can loop a couple high slow ball. But when the backspin is less (don't get me wrong; at the top level there is still a lot of backspin on that ball), the attacking player would seize that opportunity to do a loop kill to finish the point. And trust me. They are looping the ball both FORWARD and up, and not just up and up all the time.

 

[blahness]

Ok, not to make things more confusing. To me, Blahness is saying you need a "neutralising" contact to loop backspin effectively. My argument is, if you can relax and whip the ball, that is the "neutralising" contact you are looking for.

So when you say, "If swing speed is low then racket angle needs to be more open and/or swing path is more upward," that is a dangerous concept. When you loop backspin, there is no such a thing as a slow or low swing speed. In order to neutralise that backspin, your swing speed and acceleration have to be high.

If you swing at the backspin ball with low swing speed and an open racket angle, only two things will happen: one, the ball will go into the net, or two you are hitting the ball underneath the ball now.

I see a lot of players getting into that bad habit. Because their swing speed is low, their paddle is so open now, that they are literally hitting the bottom of the backspin ball to get it over the net. Phil, by the way, you are not doing that. I am referring to some other players in general.

The only real way to loop against a backspin is fast racket speed from acceleration.

Like I said it before. My Chinese coach growing up taught to me to loop using the top sheet only with forearm. When I got really good at it, after six months, he told me to use my forearm, shoulder, waist and body to hit through the ball and snap my body. I was confused as heck for the next six months until I finally got it. So he taught me how to brush the ball for six months. Then he spent the following six months to relearn how to loop by engaging the sponge in a FORWARD and up motion. No more just going up and up. It is foreward and up.

And when you figure that out, that is when you finally learn how to loop drive or loop kill a backspin ball.

Just look at some of the top players playing against a chopper. They can loop a couple high slow ball. But when the backspin is less (don't get me wrong; at the top level there is still a lot of backspin on that ball), the attacking player would seize that opportunity to do a loop kill to finish the point. And trust me. They are looping the ball both FORWARD and up, and not just up and up all the time.

I would seriously disagree with the open angle loop concept being "wrong". Everything in TT has its place.

1) one needs to learn how to walk before they can run. Without the spin neutralising contact (which is pretty much finger assisted pronation for FH and finger assisted supination fo BH which Ti Long demonstrates perfectly in his videos), a beginner will find it extremely hard to loop any kind of serious backspin no matter how hard they can accelerate their bat. Obviously the better acceleration they can acquire the more closed racket angle they can use to loop backspin, and that is an important understanding to have. The spin neutralising contact can be done at low to high speeds, and this is very important so you have different gears in your loops.

2) You wont always be in position all the time during a match when your opponent aims to disrupt you with their pushes. So knowledge of how to use and adjust open racket angles to your advantage is crucial here. If you're stuck only knowing how to brute force brush the ball with max acceleration to lift a backspin ball, these uncomfortable balls will destroy your opening loop success rates.

3) no matter your level, there will always be players above your "spin" grade. The brute force brush method only works when your topspin exceeds the backspin on the ball significantly. And at OP's level, that's a lot of players who can do that.

So for eg if I encounter someone that can serve or push so spinny that it exceeds your topspin capability (yes, I've encountered a lot of these "ghost pushers" who push with so much backspin that the forward momentum completely dies and it goes back to them once the ball hits the floor) .

This happens a lot especially after someone with long pips successfully chopblocks a spinny loop from you too.

So are you supposed to throw in the towel against such players, and just push the ball passively back, and then get destroyed by their subsequent attack? Not if you use the spin neutralising contact - once you mastered that then no amount of heavy backspin will be able to trouble you. You will always be able to attack because their backspin = your topspin (think about it - it is merely continuing the spin).

4) the other major advantage of the open angle loop concept is that it becomes quite straightforward to produce fake loops that have residual backspin on them. This option is unavailable to someone who always brute force brushes the ball, because it's obvious af when they're doing a fake loop.

 

[songdavid98]

"only a sith deals in absolutes"
I hope I can put this contention between JJ and blahness to rest.

But first, PhilT, good job on your looping! Your latest looping videos looks much more "normal" now. I hope to see some new match videos. I suspect that you face a whole new set of problems there.

**************************************
Back to looping underspin:
When I teach my students how to loop underspin, I tell them there are many ways to approach this "problem".
They can try to open their racket and see what happens.
They can go faster and see what happens.
They can change their starting point (let's call it point A) and see what happens.
They can change their ending point (point B) and see what happens.

Very quickly, they learn that changing racket angle is easy to perform and very effective, perhaps "too effective". We learn that changing racket angle changes the outcome of a shot drastically, and we need to be precise here.

We learn that topspinning harder with more muscle generally makes the ball go higher and longer. We also learn that going faster with just more muscle is hard and tiring. And so I hint that there are several ways to go faster .

We learn that moving point A down gives you more distance to go up. We also learn that moving point A to the back gives you more distance to go forward. And vice versa if we move point A up or move point A more forward. We learn that more distance helps you go faster.

We learn that moving point B affects which plane of motion we swing in, and how far point B is affects how boxed in the swing feels.
*******************************

I agree and disagree with JJ and blahness points and see that there are some misunderstandings.
It seems that blahness imagines that JJ is talking about some brute force brush loop with some 45 degree racket angle. And it seems that JJ imagines blahness is talking about a loop with 10mph racket speed with a ridiculous negative 45 degree racket angle.

I believe JJ is encouraging people to go fast and NOT do a slow racket speed negative 45 degree loop.
I believe blahness is encouraging some spin neutralizing contact because a brute force brush loop with a 45 degree angle is indeed too difficult for any serious backspin.

I hope that both JJ and blahness and see the reasonableness of both arguments. I hope that both of you are mostly envisioning around 0 degree angle loops. And I hope that you both realize both ideas can be weaved together.

Here are some other thoughts in no particular order.
1. JJ, You don't need neutralizing contact, at least until you hit your speed limit and refuse to change point A and point B (the spin grade that blahness talks about). At this point, you'll need to change your racket angle and use some neutralizing contact.
2. blahness, You can totally change point A and B still continue to perform the brute force brush method. Not that I'd recommend it, but you totally can, so you don't throw in the towel. It's not like spin neutralizing contact is the ONLY choice.
3. JJ, We all know that if your swing speed is low, you just go into the net. But the concept (of needing to be more open and upwards) is still useful if you are comparing a fast swing to a faster swing. Sort of like comparing your 80% to your 90%.
4. I agree with JJ that lots of casual players do get a bad habit of having their swing speed too low. But sometimes they are just old or injured or handicapped or weak.
5. blahness, I like to show beginners that spin neutralizing does exist, and that they can try it, but there's better alternatives, so we move on to that. We DON'T give them super backspin
6. I agree with blahness that "emergency scenarios" do often happen, but I don't suggest changing racket angle as the main solution as it is often too drastic and hit-or-miss. I suggest changing point A and B instead.
7. JJ is mostly arguing against slow racket speed, rather than against uses spin neutralizing contact. I hope/think he does understand spin neutralizing contact is used at faster speeds. Above 2100, every loopkill on a push or chop uses it, since the brute force brush is often too slow and easily countered.
8. JJ, the second half of your comment is not really relevant tbh. Spending so long on learning how to loop is not a good sign, and against choppers, we like to loopkill if the ball is higher, not if the ball is less spinny. And loopkilling is using spin neutralizing contact.
9. I agree with blahness that if you get good at spin neutralizing contact, no amount of backspin will bother you.

 

[blahness]

"only a sith deals in absolutes"
I hope I can put this contention between JJ and blahness to rest.

But first, PhilT, good job on your looping! Your latest looping videos looks much more "normal" now. I hope to see some new match videos. I suspect that you face a whole new set of problems there.

**************************************
Back to looping underspin:
When I teach my students how to loop underspin, I tell them there are many ways to approach this "problem".
They can try to open their racket and see what happens.
They can go faster and see what happens.
They can change their starting point (let's call it point A) and see what happens.
They can change their ending point (point B) and see what happens.

Very quickly, they learn that changing racket angle is easy to perform and very effective, perhaps "too effective". We learn that changing racket angle changes the outcome of a shot drastically, and we need to be precise here.

We learn that topspinning harder with more muscle generally makes the ball go higher and longer. We also learn that going faster with just more muscle is hard and tiring. And so I hint that there are several ways to go faster .

We learn that moving point A down gives you more distance to go up. We also learn that moving point A to the back gives you more distance to go forward. And vice versa if we move point A up or move point A more forward. We learn that more distance helps you go faster.

We learn that moving point B affects which plane of motion we swing in, and how far point B is affects how boxed in the swing feels.
*******************************

I agree and disagree with JJ and blahness points and see that there are some misunderstandings.
It seems that blahness imagines that JJ is talking about some brute force brush loop with some 45 degree racket angle. And it seems that JJ imagines blahness is talking about a loop with 10mph racket speed with a ridiculous negative 45 degree racket angle.

I believe JJ is encouraging people to go fast and NOT do a slow racket speed negative 45 degree loop.
I believe blahness is encouraging some spin neutralizing contact because a brute force brush loop with a 45 degree angle is indeed too difficult for any serious backspin.

I hope that both JJ and blahness and see the reasonableness of both arguments. I hope that both of you are mostly envisioning around 0 degree angle loops. And I hope that you both realize both ideas can be weaved together.

Here are some other thoughts in no particular order.
1. JJ, You don't need neutralizing contact, at least until you hit your speed limit and refuse to change point A and point B (the spin grade that blahness talks about). At this point, you'll need to change your racket angle and use some neutralizing contact.
2. blahness, You can totally change point A and B still continue to perform the brute force brush method. Not that I'd recommend it, but you totally can, so you don't throw in the towel. It's not like spin neutralizing contact is the ONLY choice.
3. JJ, We all know that if your swing speed is low, you just go into the net. But the concept (of needing to be more open and upwards) is still useful if you are comparing a fast swing to a faster swing. Sort of like comparing your 80% to your 90%.
4. I agree with JJ that lots of casual players do get a bad habit of having their swing speed too low. But sometimes they are just old or injured or handicapped or weak.
5. blahness, I like to show beginners that spin neutralizing does exist, and that they can try it, but there's better alternatives, so we move on to that. We DON'T give them super backspin
6. I agree with blahness that "emergency scenarios" do often happen, but I don't suggest changing racket angle as the main solution as it is often too drastic and hit-or-miss. I suggest changing point A and B instead.
7. JJ is mostly arguing against slow racket speed, rather than against uses spin neutralizing contact. I hope/think he does understand spin neutralizing contact is used at faster speeds. Above 2100, every loopkill on a push or chop uses it, since the brute force brush is often too slow and easily countered.
8. JJ, the second half of your comment is not really relevant tbh. Spending so long on learning how to loop is not a good sign, and against choppers, we like to loopkill if the ball is higher, not if the ball is less spinny. And loopkilling is using spin neutralizing contact.
9. I agree with blahness that if you get good at spin neutralizing contact, no amount of backspin will bother you.

Thanks David you understood my points perfectly. I'm talking about not necessarily excessive opening of the racket angle but the importance of developing the spin neutralising contact which is used up to the highest levels of looping (especially loopkilling heavy backspin like what you said). With it, even beginners can loop my heaviest backspin serves, while if they used the brute force brush method, I show them that no matter how hard they brush or change their swing plane they ain't gonna get it past the bottom of the net, simply because my spin grade is way beyond theirs.

 

[NextLevel]

Thanks David you understood my points perfectly. I'm talking about not necessarily excessive opening of the racket angle but the importance of developing the spin neutralising contact which is used up to the highest levels of looping (especially loopkilling heavy backspin like what you said). With it, even beginners can loop my heaviest backspin serves, while if they used the brute force brush method, I show them that no matter how hard they brush or change their swing plane they ain't gonna get it past the bottom of the net, simply because my spin grade is way beyond theirs.

That's probably because changing the swing plane doesn't mean spin neutralizing contract to you, but it can to someone else. In general, spin neutralizing contact is built into all table tennis technique, especially with inverted. Good luck to anyone trying to counterloop heavy topspin by hitting the back of the ball.

 

[pingpongpaddy]

I must confess I've never heard any strong player discussing "spin neutralising contact" while trying to assist a noobie to improve his game!

 

[NextLevel]

Let's not get stuck on language here...

 

[blahness]

That's probably because changing the swing plane doesn't mean spin neutralizing contract to you, but it can to someone else. In general, spin neutralizing contact is built into all table tennis technique, especially with inverted. Good luck to anyone trying to counterloop heavy topspin by hitting the back of the ball.

Yes this is another reason why it should be learnt as soon as possible.

 

[blahness]

I must confess I've never heard any strong player discussing "spin neutralising contact" while trying to assist a noobie to improve his game!

To be fair its a direct translation of the corresponding terminology in Chinese. Unfortunately the English language is far less descriptive than Chinese especially in terms of table tennis. From what I see so far even the Japanese have much richer table tennis vocabulary too.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes this is another reason why it should be learnt as soon as possible.

Not necessarily. It can come with experience of just being told to loop balls with multiple spins and let the student read and adapt to them. Like I said earlier, if you have coached people or have worked with people who learn differently from you, you become more open to figuring out what coaching analogy works for the student and realize that the way you teach one student might not work for another and that as a coach, the most important thing is to get the student to learn. I have said things that make perfect sense to one player, but put another player to sleep. All became good players but not by taking quite the same intellectual path in TT.

 

[NextLevel]

To be fair its a direct translation of the corresponding terminology in Chinese. Unfortunately the English language is far less descriptive than Chinese especially in terms of table tennis. From what I see so far even the Japanese have much richer table tennis vocabulary too.

It's usually called "racket angle" or "contact point" in English. Not that I think those ideas get the full concept across, but everyone learns it a bit differently.

 

[blahness]

It's usually called "racket angle" or "contact point" in English. Not that I think those ideas get the full concept across, but everyone learns it a bit differently.

It's not just "racket angle" or "contact point" which is a completely different concept. You already compared it to counterlooping which means you understand it completely. I think in English the closest terminology I can think of is to "roll" the ball.

 

[blahness]

Not necessarily. It can come with experience of just being told to loop balls with multiple spins and let the student read and adapt to them. Like I said earlier, if you have coached people or have worked with people who learn differently from you, you become more open to figuring out what coaching analogy works for the student and realize that the way you teach one student might not work for another and that as a coach, the most important thing is to get the student to learn. I have said things that make perfect sense to one player, but put another player to sleep. All became good players but not by taking quite the same intellectual path in TT.

Maybe they stumble onto it by accident while experimenting, but I believe Ti Long's method is the most reliable and accessible in terms of teaching the concept. Now of course this is just the contact feeling. To impart real power and spin in the loop is another matter of course.

 

[NextLevel]

It's not just "racket angle" or "contact point" which is a completely different concept. You already compared it to counterlooping which means you understand it completely. I think in English the closest terminology I can think of is to "roll" the ball.

That's the concept the use to teach it in English - didn't say they adequately covered the point. I don't think it captures the concept adequately but I'm struggling to remember someone talk about shaping the ball in an English spin tutorial. But I won't pretend to be widely coached, it was something I figured out over lots of years and I can't say coaches didn't contribute even if none of them were directly involved.

 

[NextLevel]

Maybe they stumble onto it by accident while experimenting, but I believe Ti Long's method is the most reliable and accessible in terms of teaching the concept. Now of course this is just the contact feeling. To impart real power and spin in the loop is another matter of course.

Think about adjusting to sidespin (which involves somewhat the same thing). Look at how it is taught in English and you will see what I mean. For the longest time, I would ask "If I know how to passively return a serve, how does that translate to aggressive spin return?" I never got an answer that satisfied me, but my late coach did give me good answers and training, I was just never able to understand what he was trying to communicate as well as he tried to do so.

 

[blahness]

That's the concept the use to teach it in English - didn't say they adequately covered the point. I don't think it captures the concept adequately but I'm struggling to remember someone talk about shaping the ball in an English spin tutorial. But I won't pretend to be widely coached, it was something I figured out over lots of years and I can't say coaches didn't contribute even if none of them were directly involved.

Given that wrapping is still so controversial on this forum, it's clear that the English language techniques have a lot of ground to cover/improve. These are very well accepted concepts in Chinese TT circles.

To give PechPong credit, he does talk about a lot of these more advanced concepts.

 

[ben1229]

I would say, timing is more important than everything else, and reading the ball where it drop. Techniques you can learn, timing ,you have to play more and more .

 

[JJ Ng]

I am bit confused about the discussion here. Are we talking about how to loop at 2100 level or how to loop for the beginners?

If I were to teach beginners how to loop, I would feed them no spin ball in a multiball setting. However, I would ask them to keep their paddle completely open, so perpendicular to the floor. I would ask them to be at least about one foot off the end of the table. Then I would ask them to let the ball drop, even to below the table level, and try to brush the ball in the back and use the top sheet to spin the ball and carry the ball over the net, with topspin. So point A is low. And point B would be near your forehead when you are done with the stroke.

I think it is very important from the beginning to get beginners to start understanding their equipment and trust their rubber will "carry" the ball over the net and impart top spin on it. In other words, they have to become one with their equipment.

Once they are able to impart topspins that way, I will add slightly more and more backspin in the multiball training and ask them to, initially, keep their strokes and point A and point B constant. So they can see how the curves and projectory of the ball changes as I impart more and more backspin but yet they keep their strokes the same and the bat perpendicular to the floor.

Please remember, we are talking about beginners here. They need to understand their equipment. They need to understand their body. They need to start forming muscle memories.

I think lightly brushing the ball so you feel like your rubber "carries" the ball over the net is fundamental in learning how to loop.

Then after that, depending on how fast the players learn, you adjust the racket angle first so it is no longer perpendicular anymore. And how much angle to adjust depends on the players' natural stroke and their equipment.

After they are done figuring out the racket angle, then they can adjust how point A is, low or further back. But when they adjust point A, they probably need to adjust point B.

After that, then they can start changing their racket speed and see how they can bring more waist, legs and body transfer into the stroke.

At my club, I see beginners already taught to "impart topsin" while starting to hit the ball. I am old school. When I was taught by my Chinese coach growing up, you hit, you hit. You loop, you loop. Those are two separate strokes. Once you master them, then you combine them into loop drive.

When I am at the club, and no one else is there, and it is me and the robot, then I will warm up in the following sequence. First I stand right next to the table and block with my forehand. I just keep on blocking and feel my blade and my rubber's sponge. Then I do some light hitting strokes over the top of the table with my elbow moving only. Then I will start rotating my waist and my forearm to hit the ball harder. Then I will take a step or two away from the table and start hitting. Then only after that, I take two step away from the table and start looping. Then finally, I will be mid-distant from the table and loop from there.

You will be surprised when I try to work with some beginners to go through those steps, they immediately say, "I already know how to hit. Let us go loop some balls. By the way, the way you loop from mid-distance looks really cool so let us start with that." It frustrates me to no end because obviously they don't know how to loop so you need to start with on the table first. Once you consolidate your strokes on the table, then you SLOWLY move back away from the table because all strokes are basically the same except you impart more power. But you build your muscle memory as close to the table as possible. Apparently that is a foreign concept to a lot of players and coaches. Or maybe the players, adult playes, are eager to learn and want to start hitting hard right away.

I also see many beginners are very confused about their equipment. You need to learn how to hit in order to understand your equipment's sponge. You then need to learn how to loop in order to understand your equipment's top sheet. I see that many beginners skip that process and are confused.

I think part of the reason is that the beginners, at my club, are given Viscaria with Tenergy 05 on both sides. Or Timo Boll with T80 on both sides. Well, heck with that equipment, I would never learn how to loop. That equipment is just way too fast.

However, I am also not a big proponent of ALL+ blade either. I think a 5-ply all wood OFF- blade is the sweet spot. Then the rubbers really can be Mark V or Sriver to start with, or my favorite is Neottec Katana. After that, they can choose to go Friendship or DHS route, or maybe Xiom Vega Europe route.

 

[PhilT]

Here is another video of my match today against Mark, the same person in my first video more than 2 months ago. I still lost but I felt I did better this time. Please let me know what you think. (Sorry that the camera angle is not good)

Thank you!

 

[blahness]

Here is another video of my match today against Mark, the same person in my first video more than 2 months ago. I still lost but I felt I did better this time. Please let me know what you think. (Sorry that the camera angle is not good)

Thank you!

The FH is looking a lot better now! There is a lot more spin and sting in those shots. Your major weakness now is that you're pretty much only countering weakly with your BH, the lower body involvement in the BH needs to be a lot more for the threat level to increase. Otherwise your opponents will always see the BH area as a "safe" spot to place the ball.