For those who think pips have a ceiling

[9muse]

Sorry , normally I don't post but just read.
I don't know what you are exactly saying.
But I was only just curious
Because I thought those type pips were banned so long ago & how she got them

 

[longrange]

I want to focus on a fallacy here which is an appeal to authority ie China here. Just because CNT is the best TT association out there, doesnt mean that they have fully optimised everything. It just means that they chose a path that's easy to guarantee their collective success and they stopped trying elsewhere. There are a shit ton of things in this world which are woefully unoptimised despite a lot of ppl working on the problem.

Almost all of the young kids in China train double inverted, and there's a lot of talented pips players who just became training partners - they didn't get the same amount of opportunities as their double inverted teammates clearly, because the management simply didn't see them as core team potential due to mistrust in the style of play, not in anything to do with their style.

It's not quite an appeal to authority. I personally ask the question about CNT back then, on the verge of nineties–nineties. They all play pips (obviously optimizing a lot of things and NXL and HZW are the remnants of that era. I can't say HZW is mediocre in any part of the game), they don't have top inverted, they have to study swedes and copy their game, they drop out from the top for some time, they still have LGL, who delivers insanely and yet they still choose double inverted. Why?

I could resort to a political explanation: China didn't show up on a pedestal on two first Olympics, so, the bosses ordered to switch to what works: topspin/inverted. But maybe there's an inside info from people of that era? "We analyzed and decided this, that the other".

 

[ViperTableTennis]

I believe it's important that all styles of playing this amazing sport are encouraged, it's a shame that most if not all youngsters are only trained with double inverted. I'm worried that pimples will be a thing of the past if we are not careful!!! All styles of table tennis are special,as is all of us who play this amazing sport!!!!

I agree with you to an extent. The sport would definitely be more interesting to watch if we had more variety of styles being adopted by more players. And at the lower levels of play it might even be more enjoyable for participants as well. But at the competitive end of the spectrum (the end where winning is what really matters!), there's always going to be a pull towards the styles that are most effective, and every player that's on a elite 'pathway' is going to want - and going to be encouraged to adopt - a playing style that'll maximise their chances of success. For some that might actually be going down the pips route (see my earlier comments on Falck), but for the majority its going to mean the double-inverted topspin style of play.

I'm reminded a bit here of the high-jump event in athletics. Every elite level high-jumper uses the 'Fosbury Flop' technique. They've all converged on that technique because its the most effective...but watching a high-jump competition would probably be more entertaining if there were a variety of techniques being used...but whilst that might be more enjoyable to watch, it wouldn't be driving the event forwards (and pushing jumpers to their physical limits) in the same way that everyone adopting the most effective technique does.

 

[NDH]

I believe it's important that all styles of playing this amazing sport are encouraged, it's a shame that most if not all youngsters are only trained with double inverted.

I don't know what it's like in your part of the UK, but for as long as I can remember, pimples have had such a negative connotation to anyone under 50.

How many times have you heard the words "Filthy Pimples"? 😂

The youngsters who do go down the pimples route are typically told to do so because their backhand (usually) is much weaker, and pimples provides an effective relief.

Very very very few people I know who use pimples, do so in an eye pleasing way.

They are not coached on using them properly, and often have success because others can't cope with the "weirdness".

I'll be a VET soon, so I'm already eyeing up which pimples I'll be using! 😅

 

[Metaxa]

This topic is pretty much the same as the one below:
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/i-wanna-play-with-the-big-boys.31748/
I'm not going to reply more in this topic because you can find them in the other topic.

 

[Draycott old man]

I don't know what it's like in your part of the UK, but for as long as I can remember, pimples have had such a negative connotation to anyone under 50.

How many times have you heard the words "Filthy Pimples"? 😂

The youngsters who do go down the pimples route are typically told to do so because their backhand (usually) is much weaker, and pimples provides an effective relief.

Very very very few people I know who use pimples, do so in an eye pleasing way.

They are not coached on using them properly, and often have success because others can't cope with the "weirdness".

I'll be a VET soon, so I'm already eyeing up which pimples I'll be using! 😅

I believe that Medium pimples can be a real weapon if used properly as attacking shot are so hard to play against as you actually never really know what spin or how much you are getting!!! I can chop and still even loop with them against backspin!!! I would love to see a really good player use them as I seem to be the only player in Draycott who uses them !!!

 

[ViperTableTennis]

I believe that Medium pimples can be a real weapon if used properly as attacking shot are so hard to play against as you actually never really know what spin or how much you are getting!!! I can chop and still even loop with them against backspin!!! I would love to see a really good player use them as I seem to be the only player in Draycott who uses them !!!

I can't think of any elite level players using medium pips. All the elite level pips players seem to use either long pips or short pips. I wonder whether medium pips are too much of a "jack of all trades" pimple for the top-end of the game?

 

[Draycott old man]

I can't think of any elite level players using medium pips. All the elite level pips players seem to use either long pips or short pips. I wonder whether medium pips are too much of a "jack of all trades" pimple for the top-end of the game?

Maybe your right? As surely they would of been used by now ?? Everyone I play against says they are so different to short or long Pimples!!! As you don't know what spin you are putting on the ball but it's even harder for the opponents as they don't know either!!!

 

[dingyibvs]

Everything about TT equipment is about trade offs. Pips being less spin sensitive also generates less spin, for example. Effective pips blocking also requires a close to the table style. Whether an equipment fits you depends on your own strengths and weaknesses. If you have more trouble moving around, like an older guy for example, then pips might suit you better.

In that sense, perhaps pips is the tortoise and inverted the hare.

 

[blahness]

It's not quite an appeal to authority. I personally ask the question about CNT back then, on the verge of nineties–nineties. They all play pips (obviously optimizing a lot of things and NXL and HZW are the remnants of that era. I can't say HZW is mediocre in any part of the game), they don't have top inverted, they have to study swedes and copy their game, they drop out from the top for some time, they still have LGL, who delivers insanely and yet they still choose double inverted. Why?

I could resort to a political explanation: China didn't show up on a pedestal on two first Olympics, so, the bosses ordered to switch to what works: topspin/inverted. But maybe there's an inside info from people of that era? "We analyzed and decided this, that the other".

I think they got discouraged when they banned LGL's pips and hidden serves (downright nasty move from the ITTF which reeks of jealousy and maybe a little racism too, idk), and just decided that they'll just adopt whatever the Europeans are playing with and beat them at their own game regardless.

This way, ITTF can't ban equipment used by the Chinese because it would also be banning those that European players are using.

 

[ViperTableTennis]

I think they got discouraged when they banned LGL's pips and hidden serves (downright nasty move from the ITTF which reeks of jealousy and maybe a little racism too, idk), and just decided that they'll just adopt whatever the Europeans are playing with and beat them at their own game regardless.

This way, ITTF can't ban equipment used by the Chinese because it would also be banning those that European players are using.

This touches on an important point; the strategic superiority of double-inverted play over pips play at the elite level in the modern game is in part due to the rules of the sport. There seems to be a general consensus amongst the table tennis community that the rule changes over say the last 30ish years have - on balance - favoured the two-winged lopping/attacking type of play more so than the more defensive or non-topspin focused styles. Whether those rule changes had that deliberate intention is a discussion for another thread, but the end result is the same; its now much harder to get to the top of the sport using pips than it was say in the 1970's or 1980's (the pips ceiling has been lowered!).

 

[Gozo Aruna]

5th Set 11-0

Pips have ceiling.

 

[longrange]

I think they got discouraged when they banned LGL's pips

I thought about something like this, but the timeline doesn't match. For Kong Linghui to win in Sydney they'd had to start training him seriously long before.

and hidden serves (downright nasty move from the ITTF which reeks of jealousy and maybe a little racism too, idk), and just decided that they'll just adopt whatever the Europeans are playing with and beat them at their own game regardless.

Hidden serves appear disgraceful to me, no sportsmanship whatsoever. And then Europeans were feeding from them a lot as well, this ban had struck them too.

This way, ITTF can't ban equipment used by the Chinese because it would also be banning those that European players are using.

That kinda makes sense, but they switched to sticky rubbers instead, which could have been targeted the same way any time.

 

[blahness]

I thought about something like this, but the timeline doesn't match. For Kong Linghui to win in Sydney they'd had to start training him seriously long before.

Hidden serves appear disgraceful to me, no sportsmanship whatsoever. And then Europeans were feeding from them a lot as well, this ban had struck them too.


That kinda makes sense, but they switched to sticky rubbers instead, which could have been targeted the same way any time.

1) Kong Linghui was just a backup plan that ended up being successful - you should never just have 1 plan in a war. Once he became successful, they decided that this path was the way to go forward (though there were still penholders going forward like Ma Lin and Wang Hao who dominated the scene for a while).

2) Waldner first came up with the "disgusting" underarm hidden serve, not LGL. They never touched the hidden serve when Waldner and the other Europeans were dominating, but decided to change the rules and ban LGL's pips just when he started to dominate. Coincidence? I think not.

3) it's no secret that ITTF has always had an anti Chinese agenda. Almost all of the changes have targeted the Chinese specifically (that never happens in other sports where Europeans/Americans are dominating), but anyway it ended up increasing Chinese dominance of the sport because with a much larger player base, the Chinese could always adapt more quickly.

4) They had no good justification for banning tacky rubbers. Even if they did, CNT will still end up on top of the sport due to sheer numbers. Remember they had to invent one to go to plastic balls and hide a ball size increase with that?

 

[ViperTableTennis]

3) it's no secret that ITTF has always had an anti Chinese agenda. Almost all of the changes have targeted the Chinese specifically (that never happens in other sports where Europeans/Americans are dominating), but anyway it ended up increasing Chinese dominance of the sport because with a much larger player base, the Chinese could always adapt more quickly.

Can you give some examples here? I'm unclear as to how rules changes could be said to specifically target a country, rather than target a style of play.

 

[longrange]

1) Kong Linghui was just a backup plan that ended up being successful - you should never just have 1 plan in a war. Once he became successful, they decided that this path was the way to go forward (though there were still penholders going forward like Ma Lin and Wang Hao who dominated the scene for a while).

This would basically mean that they dropped all pips for a single fluke. No second guessing. I find it hard to believe.

2) Waldner first came up with the "disgusting" underarm hidden serve, not LGL. They never touched the hidden serve when Waldner and the other Europeans were dominating, but decided to change the rules and ban LGL's pips just when he started to dominate. Coincidence? I think not.

I could assume a delay in decision-making, but I could equally likely assume the conspiracy here, I agree.

3) it's no secret that ITTF has always had an anti Chinese agenda. Almost all of the changes have targeted the Chinese specifically (that never happens in other sports where Europeans/Americans are dominating), but anyway it ended up increasing Chinese dominance of the sport because with a much larger player base, the Chinese could always adapt more quickly.

I don't think so. All the changes seem to be in the direction of increase of the revenue of the TT-equipment companies. They didn't target China as much as pockets of players.

4) They had no good justification for banning tacky rubbers. Even if they did, CNT will still end up on top of the sport due to sheer numbers. Remember they had to invent one to go to plastic balls and hide a ball size increase with that?

That's a good example actually: the new ball meant the increase of sales of much more expensive carbon blades.

 

[NextLevel]

This would basically mean that they dropped all pips for a single fluke. No second guessing. I find it hard to believe.

The article I cited in response to PPD claims that even in internal practice, the shakehand inverted players were doing better than the pips out penholders. The change was pretty much inevitable based on the easiest way to stay ahead of the curve - if you can't beat them, join them!

The secrets of Chinese table tennis

Table tennis information site. This web site has lots of information on strokes, basics, rules, injury info, articles, interviews, links and video clips both in English and in Turkish.

www.masatenisi.org

Some say China is good at table tennis only because of sheer numbers. There is, of course, a degree of truth to this. However, as shown by Europe’s (especially Sweden’s) rise in the early 1990s, and China’s decline, numbers cannot overcome poor technique. In the late 1980’s/early 1990s, China was slow to adjust to changing technique, sticking too long with most pips-out style games while the rest of the world was changing to inverted looping, especially shakehand style. China has learned from that experience, and now leads the world in this very style. Wang Liqin was recently re-crowned as world men’s champion (he also won in 2001). On the women’s side, Zhang Yining just won the Worlds; she was preceded by Wang Nan, who won three straight. All three of these players are shakehand loopers, and are probably the most emulated players in the world.

 

[blahness]

This would basically mean that they dropped all pips for a single fluke. No second guessing. I find it hard to believe.

I could assume a delay in decision-making, but I could equally likely assume the conspiracy here, I agree.

I don't think so. All the changes seem to be in the direction of increase of the revenue of the TT-equipment companies. They didn't target China as much as pockets of players.

That's a good example actually: the new ball meant the increase of sales of much more expensive carbon blades.

LGL was the player that was most dangerous to non CNT. First by banning LGL's pips, then the ban of the hidden serve was blatantly targeted against him. China was lucky that Kong Linghui stepped up at the time.

Obviously they wouldnt want to field any more pips players after that as its a huge risk.

After that, the reduction of Olympic events + removal of doubles + deeply unfair system of only allowing 2 singles players to participate was also blatantly targeting China's ability to win Olympic medals. This system robbed so many talented players of their dream to participate in the Olympics simply due to ITTF being an asshole to the Chinese. You also got reduction in WTTC spots down to 5 per association so they can't even go to the World Championships to prove themselves.

Its not new too, for eg Swimming has dozens of events all just variants of the same stupid stroke. So you get one person getting dozens of medals simply because the guy is good at swimming. Imagine TT with events of best of 3, best of 5, best of 7 all having separate medals lmao.

It's just a farce.

I can't believe you guys just don't see this - it's just an open secret at this point.

 

[blahness]

As I said in another post . there used to be like 150 countries playing in World Championships. ITTF had to rediuce it due to logistics or whatever which is understandable. It is even harder to have lots of players in each sport at Olympics. So a limit of 2 players in singles & 3 players in all events combined makes sense. There are probably 1000 or more players in China who can make the Olympics in table tennis. By limiting them to 2 it gives other countries like Germany or France a fighting chance. Sweden & Hungary were amazing in this respect but even them they did not do it on Women's side.

Same country dominating the sport forever is not good for any sport and most especially a struggling sport like table tennis. So I think It is necesssary to come up with new methods of manipulating the World Championships or developing more major events & designing them so that China cannot win at least till more countries can catch up. I do not think it has amything to do with being racist & these manipulations have happened in other sports also. I would actually like to see China do better in tennis, football, cricket, hockey etc & it is good for those sports

Yeah but where is the affirmative action given to Chinese in other sports?! Rules for thee not for me?

Also this kind of affirmative action (manipulations) is completely antithetical to the spirit of sport - where we want to see the strongest compete. There shouldn't be disgusting shit like this, period.

The problem is also that CNT will now always send the strongest players against foreign associations to the Olympics where they have an unhindered path to the final without meeting any pesky team-mates. A lot of upsets happened in the past this way (Wang Hao blocking Wang Liqin from the 2004 finals for eg, even recently Lin Shidong won against FZD and lost to Boll)...

 

[blahness]

Not really. "You" want to see only the strongest compete.
Unless you are so sure that you are talking on behalf everyone else.
Pro sports can also be about other factors. I do not want to get into those factors here.

By other factors you mean political and racial? Obviously you don't wanna talk about it 🙄

If thats what you want, why doesn't the NBA give 20% of the spots to Chinese players? Same for football? You're all about affirmative action right?