Just curious how many Penholders are on TTD?

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I'm a c-pen beginner, learning both TPB and RPB. My grip is very similar to Ma Lin's, so can switch between the two.

If you're a beginner, just practice that RPB almost exclusively. Do yourself that favor and get use to it now. Note any young penholder you'll find around. They all use RPB.
 
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I'm talking about short sidespin/ sidetopspin serves. How hard can you flip those confidently? If they're high, it's easy, but the low ones, I usually end up flipping them long. Maybe I'm lifting them unnecessarily, but I already feel that my shot is pretty low, so I don't think that's the case. I ruled out timing as the issue.

Do you guys go for mostly wrist (80-90%)? Do you think of them as a forehand drive? Do you droop your paddle down when you do it?

I've been practicing more of a wristy fast flip, but not that successful. Also, I'm too chicken to pull it out in game if the serve is low :(


depends how low it is. but generaly hsyt use the pace of the ball and place it . it pops i slap that bad boy all the time<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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Can somebody please translate the commentary in the aforementioned portion

The first part is flipping an underspin ball. For this shot, the motion isn't very bad. There isn't strong topspin in the shot; instead sidespin is the main spin.

You bring up your right foot and put your body close to the table. Just as the ball starts descending, start at the bottom right of the ball, use your wrist, go upwards, and spin the ball.

Against topspin:
Bring up your right foot, and use your forearm and wrist to go forward. Hit at the highest point of the bounce. Contact the middle or the middle upper part of the ball.

The narrator then says something about sudden or automatic movement.

You go to the right for your backswing, and swing to your left and upwards to hit the ball.

For the down the line shot, he doesn't use his wrist.

The movement is small, so you should be able to get back into position fairly quickly
 
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Thank you david !
The first part is flipping an underspin ball. For this shot, the motion isn't very bad. There isn't strong topspin in the shot; instead sidespin is the main spin.

You bring up your right foot and put your body close to the table. Just as the ball starts descending, start at the bottom right of the ball, use your wrist, go upwards, and spin the ball.

Against topspin:
Bring up your right foot, and use your forearm and wrist to go forward. Hit at the highest point of the bounce. Contact the middle or the middle upper part of the ball.

The narrator then says something about sudden or automatic movement.

You go to the right for your backswing, and swing to your left and upwards to hit the ball.

For the down the line shot, he doesn't use his wrist.

The movement is small, so you should be able to get back into position fairly quickly
 
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tickmark/whip mechanics/checkmark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgvxkRaSZQk

In rewatching this vid, i may be exaggerating motion of the beginning point #1 too much - perhaps due to watching NextLevel practice his motions before he hits the ball.
 
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So after watching He Zhiwen forehand flip a bunch of serves three days ago, I copied him and now I am pretty confident in my forehand flip, both on pushes and on sidespin/sidetopspin serves (I've been practicing it these two days)

You can watch him start playing in 29:50 in Robert's live video from 1/2/18 (you can also watch me play and beat two people 3-0)

https://www.facebook.com/robert.chen.33886/videos/1929866447029590/

What I was doing wrong was that I was pointing my paddle the wrong way. I am really used to having my paddle pointing more towards the sides, but the right way to go about it is the have the paddle droop more downwards.

I played at 2100 player named Letao Bo (https://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/ratings/usatt-individuals-ratings). He's a right-handed two-winged penhold looper, who mainly serves short sidespin/sidetopspin to get the first attack. In the past, I've had really close matches with him and I had trouble with his serve. When we play in Robert's leagues, I usually win 3-2, but it's a tough victory.

Today, I beat him 3-1 the first match, and then 3-0 easily in the second match, all because of my forehand flip. It dealt with his serves easily. In the second match, I simply flipped at a more extreme angle, so he couldn't forehand loop it.

My forehand counterloop today was pretty good against him. Whenever I flipped, he backhand looped (or forehand looped if my flip wasn't wide enough), which I counterlooped to take back offense. I only missed two out of many counterloops today against Bo (and we had quite some counterloop rallies as well). I feel like the only thing I have left to work on is my backhand to reach 2300 level. All I have to do is lower my backswing a little more on topspin, since I go to the net so much.
 
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Is it just me or is he really pretty much horizontally tossing the balls back to his paddle when serving ?

So after watching He Zhiwen forehand flip a bunch of serves three days ago, I copied him and now I am pretty confident in my forehand flip, both on pushes and on sidespin/sidetopspin serves (I've been practicing it these two days)

You can watch him start playing in 29:50 in Robert's live video from 1/2/18 (you can also watch me play and beat two people 3-0)

https://www.facebook.com/robert.chen.33886/videos/1929866447029590/

What I was doing wrong was that I was pointing my paddle the wrong way. I am really used to having my paddle pointing more towards the sides, but the right way to go about it is the have the paddle droop more downwards.

I played at 2100 player named Letao Bo (https://www.teamusa.org/usa-table-tennis/ratings/usatt-individuals-ratings). He's a right-handed two-winged penhold looper, who mainly serves short sidespin/sidetopspin to get the first attack. In the past, I've had really close matches with him and I had trouble with his serve. When we play in Robert's leagues, I usually win 3-2, but it's a tough victory.

Today, I beat him 3-1 the first match, and then 3-0 easily in the second match, all because of my forehand flip. It dealt with his serves easily. In the second match, I simply flipped at a more extreme angle, so he couldn't forehand loop it.

My forehand counterloop today was pretty good against him. Whenever I flipped, he backhand looped (or forehand looped if my flip wasn't wide enough), which I counterlooped to take back offense. I only missed two out of many counterloops today against Bo (and we had quite some counterloop rallies as well). I feel like the only thing I have left to work on is my backhand to reach 2300 level. All I have to do is lower my backswing a little more on topspin, since I go to the net so much.
 
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Got it ! He is generating the momentum he is used to by tossing it back into the paddle because he can't toss it high enough !! how long is he going to hang out there ? Is he still playing professional league in Europe ?
He couldn't do his high toss serve cuz the ceiling is too low. But yeah, his toss isn't exactly vertical
 
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Got it ! He is generating the momentum he is used to by tossing it back into the paddle because he can't toss it high enough !! how long is he going to hang out there ? Is he still playing professional league in Europe ?

I think he's leaving on 1/17/18. He retired 2 years ago, but I don't know if he's still playing leagues.
 
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Hi All, another penholder here, I play lefthanded cpen with both rpb and tpb. I've been playing in a club regularly for a year and a half or so, but my level is still pretty low, under usatt 1000 but I think I can break that soon and I'm looking to improve.

Here is a recent practice video of mine. I'm looking to improve my forehand form. I've watched and identified lots of issues, but some tips on how to improve and what I should focus on would be great!



Finally there was some discussion about lefthand rpb pendhold players. As this is my style I've also search extensively to find other players of this style, here is one I haven't seen mentioned, Kim Ok Chan of North Korea!

 
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Hi All, another penholder here, I play lefthanded cpen with both rpb and tpb. I've been playing in a club regularly for a year and a half or so, but my level is still pretty low, under usatt 1000 but I think I can break that soon and I'm looking to improve.

Here is a recent practice video of mine. I'm looking to improve my forehand form. I've watched and identified lots of issues, but some tips on how to improve and what I should focus on would be great!



Finally there was some discussion about lefthand rpb pendhold players. As this is my style I've also search extensively to find other players of this style, here is one I haven't seen mentioned, Kim Ok Chan of North Korea!


ttctoc...

Welcome to TTD.

The Goon Squad scouting report on your base FH topspin...

Overall, the issue is you are not efficiently transferring power to the ball. This is causing your power to be sapped well before you impact the ball... the result is poor power and poor consistency.

There are several things you are doing contributing to this.

1 - You are starting with good leg bend and waist turn, but you lose all that good kinetic energy by sticking out your bent arm forward, then swinging with the hitting shoulder/upper arm/lower arm all locked in 4x4 drive. Your power gets sapped right there. By locking all those units, you are unable to transfer that good power and make a good whip motion. So, your power is limited to whatever little energy gets transferred plus whatever energy your locked up arm/shoulder can produce... which is too little, even if you would have elephant muscles like I got behind my shoulders, they are still to tiny to move all that weight quickly with power and control. End result is you lose way too much power, but are still trying to hit explosively using muscles that have no possibility of generating the needed power. As a consequence, your stroke doesn't have enough transfer to the ball to make enough pace and spin to be consistent and controlled.

2- You are hitting the ball often WAY in front of your effective strike zone. This is also a cause of stopping or greatly impeding the power transfer. SOMETIMES, vs underspin when the ball curled into your body, you actually loosened up some of your shoulder and struck the ball closer to the effective part of the impact zone... then your shot had some spin and pace and control... but you were doing this on less than half your shots. A LOT of the reason you hit in front of the zone is you appear to feel comfortable with striking the ball there. Some of the reason is you are out of position. You would need to move forward, or some more to the side to get the ball in the effective strike zone on a lot of the shots where you hit in front, or would have to wait for the ball some more, but it would be lower so you would need to bend down a little more to counter that for a good impact on balance.

3 - You appear to want to macho man crush the ball... and male primal urge instinct is to use the upper body to stab the enemy to death... this wont work in transferring maximum force to the ball, it will only get in the way and later injure you. These "Urges" make you want to hit the ball earlier when the ball in not yet in the sweet spart of the impact zone... then you also want that assist from upper body and engage that WAY too soon. You lose the power transfer right there, and even more of it hitting way too far in front.

An effective power transfer to the ball uses a SEQUENCE of muscles/muscle groups with successive timing of the individual explosions that must take place to generate and multiply/amplify your power created with legs and waist.

By locking up everything from hitting shoulder joint down to your fingers, you stop those individual contributions to power and force muscles behind your shoulder and the small muscles around your rotator cuff create the power again... it is too late and that muscle group cannot generate the needed power... it is a waste...

However, MANY players beginning the sport and MANY players who played (even a good many who were coached for years) still do this. The fix is very simple to understand, but mentally, very difficult to implement, because it just feels to weird doing it "right" or "effective" and macho man powering the ball with locked up shoulder/arm feels natural.

The time to firm up is RIGHT at impact... that really magnifies the power generated and gives it to the ball, even on a 30% power swing it really adds to the ball. Some shots are better done without that at impact, you learn that personally as you go.

You look Korean, and if you are, check out youtube and search for Kim Jung Hoon Table Tennis and look at ALL his vids, he must have a dozen or two. He very clearly spells out the basics of what I am saying in easy to understand terms (for Koreans at least) He has a number from when tak9.com supported him, but he opened up a club a couple years back and started a whole new series of vids from his new club. ALL these videos hold valuable information on basic fundamentals of the sport... but they are SO VALUABLE to anyone at any level... they are absolutely essential to producing a quality ball... that of course contributes to a better level.
 
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ttctoc...

Welcome to TTD.

The Goon Squad scouting report on your base FH topspin...

Overall, the issue is you are not efficiently transferring power to the ball. This is causing your power to be sapped well before you impact the ball... the result is poor power and poor consistency.

There are several things you are doing contributing to this.

1 - You are starting with good leg bend and waist turn, but you lose all that good kinetic energy by sticking out your bent arm forward, then swinging with the hitting shoulder/upper arm/lower arm all locked in 4x4 drive. Your power gets sapped right there. By locking all those units, you are unable to transfer that good power and make a good whip motion. So, your power is limited to whatever little energy gets transferred plus whatever energy your locked up arm/shoulder can produce... which is too little, even if you would have elephant muscles like I got behind my shoulders, they are still to tiny to move all that weight quickly with power and control. End result is you lose way too much power, but are still trying to hit explosively using muscles that have no possibility of generating the needed power. As a consequence, your stroke doesn't have enough transfer to the ball to make enough pace and spin to be consistent and controlled.

2- You are hitting the ball often WAY in front of your effective strike zone. This is also a cause of stopping or greatly impeding the power transfer. SOMETIMES, vs underspin when the ball curled into your body, you actually loosened up some of your shoulder and struck the ball closer to the effective part of the impact zone... then your shot had some spin and pace and control... but you were doing this on less than half your shots. A LOT of the reason you hit in front of the zone is you appear to feel comfortable with striking the ball there. Some of the reason is you are out of position. You would need to move forward, or some more to the side to get the ball in the effective strike zone on a lot of the shots where you hit in front, or would have to wait for the ball some more, but it would be lower so you would need to bend down a little more to counter that for a good impact on balance.

3 - You appear to want to macho man crush the ball... and male primal urge instinct is to use the upper body to stab the enemy to death... this wont work in transferring maximum force to the ball, it will only get in the way and later injure you. These "Urges" make you want to hit the ball earlier when the ball in not yet in the sweet spart of the impact zone... then you also want that assist from upper body and engage that WAY too soon. You lose the power transfer right there, and even more of it hitting way too far in front.

An effective power transfer to the ball uses a SEQUENCE of muscles/muscle groups with successive timing of the individual explosions that must take place to generate and multiply/amplify your power created with legs and waist.

By locking up everything from hitting shoulder joint down to your fingers, you stop those individual contributions to power and force muscles behind your shoulder and the small muscles around your rotator cuff create the power again... it is too late and that muscle group cannot generate the needed power... it is a waste...

However, MANY players beginning the sport and MANY players who played (even a good many who were coached for years) still do this. The fix is very simple to understand, but mentally, very difficult to implement, because it just feels to weird doing it "right" or "effective" and macho man powering the ball with locked up shoulder/arm feels natural.

The time to firm up is RIGHT at impact... that really magnifies the power generated and gives it to the ball, even on a 30% power swing it really adds to the ball. Some shots are better done without that at impact, you learn that personally as you go.

You look Korean, and if you are, check out youtube and search for Kim Jung Hoon Table Tennis and look at ALL his vids, he must have a dozen or two. He very clearly spells out the basics of what I am saying in easy to understand terms (for Koreans at least) He has a number from when tak9.com supported him, but he opened up a club a couple years back and started a whole new series of vids from his new club. ALL these videos hold valuable information on basic fundamentals of the sport... but they are SO VALUABLE to anyone at any level... they are absolutely essential to producing a quality ball... that of course contributes to a better level.


This is great thank you! So if I'm understanding correctly seems like the most important thing I should focus on is keeping the upper body muscles loose until right before impact of the ball, secondly focus on impacting the ball at the right position (I think relative to my body, it should be more next to my body and less in front of my body?)

I definitely noticed how locked up my arm is and in this video i'm actually trying to work on that, often times I think i'm actually worse! I'm actually not Korean, but I watched a bit of this videos and I've watched other tutorial videos and been frustrated when my stroke does not look them same as them. For me it is definitely very difficult to mentally change after doing it so long, and not naturally having the feel to do it right! Thinking about it now though, I never made a point to relax my shoulder muscle and I think this may be key. I think I just have my shoulder always tight and never really thought about it.

Definitely going to try to apply this in my next practice. I'm planning to post more videos of my progress on my youtube too.

I think I might remember you in the club, you were usually wearing the red nexy shirt? Never had a chance to play you since you were rated so much higher than me!
 
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I wore mostly Nexy or Stiga or Tibhar jerseys.

The key is being loose everywhere and making those explosions happen in sequence on time. One can firm up the grip (not the arm/shoulder) at impact for more force to the ball, but some impacts are good without that, depends on what you are trying to do. Spin and control come from good smooth coordinated amplification of kinetic energy, balance, position, timing, impact and effective use of impact zone.

That is a mouthful, but for you to apply this, you will have to mess around with how your generate power and stay loose. You will know when you get it right, the power will be "easy" and you have the spin and control.
 
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As for how much in front of or how much next to your body to ipact ball, that will depend on how much waist and shoulder rotation you made.

Kim Jung Hoon advocates rotating the shoulders back more than many Americans do... this causes the effective hitting zone to be a deeper (more towards side and rear of body - but not behind body)

Visualize a triangle that projects from your body - the point comes out of the center point between your shoulders and the flat part is parallel to your shoulders... so the orientation of that is exactly where your shoulders are squared towards...

The center of the effective zone is right in the middle of that line. Imagine, if you rotate your shoulders more, then that line center will be way on your side now. When you explode the waist then shoulders in a swing, that line center point now moves in an arc forward. if you use that large shoulder turn, your impact will still be right in front of your body and shoulders, but it will be deeper - more towards the rear of where your feet are setup. The face of your bat will still be facing where you are intending to hit... it is simply deeper to the rear as you had turned shoulders more.

This is the kind of power transfer Kim Jung Hoon advocates. It isn't the only way to impact, but it is consistent, easy to understand and implement, and consistent - delivers max force to the ball at impact.

You could always use less shoulder turn and that will make the impact be a bit more forward.

When you impact WAY out of the strike zone, you cannot deliver a lot of force to the ball. It also messes up the power transfer, swing plane, timing, bat angles and anything else you can dream of.

Think of a triangle coming out from the center of your shoulders and it will be easy to visualize. Stay in your triangle. If you are going cross court... whip those shoulders early and they will be oriented towards cross corner angle... i you want to go down the line, let the ball come deeper into your zone and impact it so your triangle center line and bat angle are facing down the line. You can hit with full power spin and control doing this and have a "Field of Fire" of 30 degrees easily with control and consistency.

When one hits too far in front or behind of the arc, or tries to impact ball too far body, bad stuff happens.
 
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Welcome to TTD and this PH thread ttctoc!

Hi All, another penholder here, I play lefthanded cpen with both rpb and tpb. I've been playing in a club regularly for a year and a half or so, but my level is still pretty low, under usatt 1000 but I think I can break that soon and I'm looking to improve.

Here is a recent practice video of mine. I'm looking to improve my forehand form. I've watched and identified lots of issues, but some tips on how to improve and what I should focus on would be great!



Finally there was some discussion about lefthand rpb pendhold players. As this is my style I've also search extensively to find other players of this style, here is one I haven't seen mentioned, Kim Ok Chan of North Korea!

 
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