Why does ML use soft 37d rubber on bh?

[TensorBackhand]

Just curious, why does ML use the relatively soft 37d (48d ESN?) rubber on his bh?

FZD, LGY use the much harder 55d D09c on backhand.

Why would ML use such a softer rubber?

 

[hclnnkhg]

Just curious, why does ML use the relatively soft 37d (48d ESN?) rubber on his bh?

FZD, LGY use the much harder 55d D09c on backhand.

Why would ML use such a softer rubber?

ML doesn't play BH as aggressive as most other players, instead he varies the pace and placement of his BH shot to mess up his opponents' timing and rhythm. I guess H3 37deg is more suitable for such style than Dignics etc., which are great for attacking but not as good as taking pace off the ball.

 

[Chang]

Just curious, why does ML use the relatively soft 37d (48d ESN?) rubber on his bh?

FZD, LGY use the much harder 55d D09c on backhand.

Why would ML use such a softer rubber?

I do not have the exact answer, just small insight. It was said, that after his loss agains Zhang jike at the 2014 World Cup, he completely changed way of aproach to backhand, changed rubber and technique. It even looks different then his past bh technique.
And just a little correction, Dignics is 55 point hard on the ESN scale, but 44 on the Butterfly scale. Ma Long´s DHS is 37 on Butterfly scale, so it is arround 48-49 ESN scale.

 

[lodro]

I assume we are talking not only about 37 National but most likely
a 37 National-ML.
And therefore who really knows what hardness Ma Long's 37 rubber really is.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I do not have the exact answer, just small insight. It was said, that after his loss agains Zhang jike at the 2014 World Cup, he completely changed way of aproach to backhand, changed rubber and technique. It even looks different then his past bh technique.
And just a little correction, Dignics is 55 point hard on the ESN scale, but 44 on the Butterfly scale. Ma Long´s DHS is 37 on Butterfly scale, so it is arround 48-49 ESN scale.

Yes, I know the scale differences and mentioned it in my opening post.

What rubber was ML using before his loss to ZJK?

 

[TensorBackhand]

ML doesn't play BH as aggressive as most other players, instead he varies the pace and placement of his BH shot to mess up his opponents' timing and rhythm. I guess H3 37deg is more suitable for such style than Dignics etc., which are great for attacking but not as good as taking pace off the ball.

If his BH is less aggressive, why would he use H3? I feel like H3 is quite sensitive to incoming spin. Why wouldn't he just use something like Tenergy to block and focus on placement and variation?

 

[TensorBackhand]

Also, according to here:

PROTT

It seems like most of the CNT is using 2.1mm FH rubber. Why would they choose 2.1mm instead of Max 2.2mm sponge?

 

[hclnnkhg]

If his BH is less aggressive, why would he use H3? I feel like H3 is quite sensitive to incoming spin. Why wouldn't he just use something like Tenergy to block and focus on placement and variation?

I have never played with Tenergy but it's seem to be spin sensitive as well. My guess is H3 makes it easy to do a slow and spinny counter topspin, which tensor rubbers/ tenergy are not as good at - they are better suited for aggressive counter loop.

Also, according to here:

PROTT

It seems like most of the CNT is using 2.1mm FH rubber. Why would they choose 2.1mm instead of Max 2.2mm sponge?

Leave some room for boosting so they don't exceed 4mm.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I have never played with Tenergy but it's seem to be spin sensitive as well. My guess is H3 makes it easy to do a slow and spinny counter topspin, which tensor rubbers/ tenergy are not as good at - they are better suited for aggressive counter loop.


Leave some room for boosting so they don't exceed 4mm.

I don't think I've ever seen ML play a purposely slow topspin from his BH. It just looks fast and furious to me. WCQ also uses H3 37 on his BH, and he is very aggressive. LJK too.

Does boosting make the sponge thicker? I can't imagine a 2.2mm rubber exceeding 4mm just from extra booster

 

[lodro]

Also, according to here:

PROTT

It seems like most of the CNT is using 2.1mm FH rubber. Why would they choose 2.1mm instead of Max 2.2mm sponge?

well, there ye go.
I of course can only guess but if he would really start with H 42 by the time he would have boosted the living bejeuzes out of the sponge he probably plays with 39-40 😁


Model ：Ma Long personal H3

Sponge color : Blue

Sponge thickness : 2.1mm

Rubber color : Black

Hardness : 42 degree

This Hurricane 3 version is used by Ma Long himself in Olympics Table Tennis Championships in Rio 2016. This rubber is very rare!

​

 

[SFF_lib]

Just curious, why does ML use the relatively soft 37d (48d ESN?) rubber on his bh?

FZD, LGY use the much harder 55d D09c on backhand.

Why would ML use such a softer rubber?

The special 37 "soft" sponge is NOT soft at all. I've played provincial 37 and provincial 37 "soft" versions. They are completely different sponges. The 37 "soft" is quite hard and has more catapult effect. To compare, it feels almost like a 39 provincial hurricane with much better touch and feedback.

 

[hclnnkhg]

I don't think I've ever seen ML play a purposely slow topspin from his BH. It just looks fast and furious to me. WCQ also uses H3 37 on his BH, and he is very aggressive. LJK too.

Does boosting make the sponge thicker? I can't imagine a 2.2mm rubber exceeding 4mm just from extra booster

LJK allegedly uses 41 on BH, not 37.
Maybe not just booster, the CNT seems to prefer to have very thick glue layers (4 or 5 layers)

In addition the topsheet thickness needs to be taken into account. Ultramax only exists for Rasanter because the topsheet is designed to be thinner. Not sure how thick the H3 topsheet is.

 

[Attitude]

The hardness doesnt give much information about the feel and possibilities of its rubber. I played with both rubbers and D09c doesnt feel that hard at all.
Even boosted H3 37 felt harder and less bouncy.

And then there is the usage. Playing chop blocks, pushes and full swing attacks like WCQ or LJK are very hard or impossible with the d09c. But it plays better with flicks and hard, short movement and flatter shots. You can easily compare ljk and FZD and see incredible differences in their bh techniques. If they would swap rackets they would need to adjust. Or simply watch ljk before he switched to W968+h3.

 

[blahness]

It's because tacky rubbers allow him to push very short even on the BH with ease and also allow him to slow down incoming rockets significantly on the BH block. Also Ma Long's BH is not weak contrary to popular opinion. In fact he was winning most of the BH-BH rallies against ZJK in the Rio Olympics, and also it wasn't even a liability against Fan Zhendong in the various WTTCs and Olympics (FZD never won against Ma Long in a major).

 

[TensorBackhand]

The special 37 "soft" sponge is NOT soft at all. I've played provincial 37 and provincial 37 "soft" versions. They are completely different sponges. The 37 "soft" is quite hard and has more catapult effect. To compare, it feels almost like a 39 provincial hurricane with much better touch and feedback.

I don't understand. If the H3 37 is 37 degrees, by definition it is 2 degrees softer than H3 39. So it is soft relative to H3 39 and soft relative to D09c that his teammates are using.

 

[TensorBackhand]

LJK allegedly uses 41 on BH, not 37.
Maybe not just booster, the CNT seems to prefer to have very thick glue layers (4 or 5 layers)

In addition the topsheet thickness needs to be taken into account. Ultramax only exists for Rasanter because the topsheet is designed to be thinner. Not sure how thick the H3 topsheet is.

So what is the purpose of making very thick glue layers?

 

[hclnnkhg]

I don't understand. If the H3 37 is 37 degrees, by definition it is 2 degrees softer than H3 39. So it is soft relative to H3 39 and soft relative to D09c that his teammates are using.

Hardness comparison only really makes sense if the sponge is the same model, so comparing H3 with D09c is meaningless (not to mention the topsheet is also different, which contributes to the "feel").

 

[TensorBackhand]

Hardness comparison only really makes sense if the sponge is the same model, so comparing H3 with D09c is meaningless (not to mention the topsheet is also different, which contributes to the "feel").

This confuses me even more. There has got to be a full directory somewhere with objective measurable factual hardness of rubbers across brands and models.

When people tell me that the 55d D09c is softer than the 37d H3 (48ESN), I have a hard time believing this to be true unless it was objectively measured to be so.

 

[hclnnkhg]

This confuses me even more. There has got to be a full directory somewhere with objective measurable factual hardness of rubbers across brands and models.

When people tell me that the 55d D09c is softer than the 37d H3 (48ESN), I have a hard time believing this to be true unless it was objectively measured to be so.

manufacturer reports sponge hardness. When you hit, you feel the topsheet and sponge, possibly some of the blade (could be eliminated from the equation if you put both rubbers on the same blade).

In addition, durometer measure hardness at a given force. It is a point on the indentation-force curve, which is unlikely to be very linear for sponges. Shore A and Shore O are also different methods (I think one of them uses a needle, the other uses a ball, correct me if I am wrong), so the conversion isn't exact.

 

[lodro]

https://tabletennis-reviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Durometer-Conversion-Chart.jpg

This confuses me even more. There has got to be a full directory somewhere with objective measurable factual hardness of rubbers across brands and models.

It is not in the interest of the manufacturers to give you "objective data", measurable , repeatable information that would allow you to make good decision.
They want you to purchase many items not just to look at numbers and choose only one.