European Players & Tacky Rubbers

berndtjgmann · Feb 28, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
Perhaps you are just trying to save face and I should simply let this go and let the thread go back to the intended subject matter.

But I fear, instead you are also being hard headed.

If you were a musician and, say, you played Jazz guitar, and some old timer told you: [because burnt-man wasn’t really asking]: “how could you like that crap when Vivaldi’s Four Seasons exists!” [Yes, hopefully you can see that not everybody loves Vivaldi’s Four Seasons].

First off, the premise of berndtjgmann’s question is that WE NEED a reason to like modern table tennis. We don’t. If you like it, that is enough. If you like something and someone is asking you: “why on earth would you like that, when you could like this instead,” they are not asking you a question. They are mocking you.

Second, berndtjgmann is presenting the idea that too many equipment choices are a problem. They aren’t. And when you understand equipment, there really aren’t so many choices as burnt-mann makes out. All, All+/Off-, Off, Off+, Defensive & Hybrid. Smooth, pimples, antispin. A moderate variety of surface playing options adds to the variety of play styles that can be successful. I would say this adds to the sport rather than how berndtjgmann is presenting that it is a problem.

The third thing is, in his trolling, there is this implicit idea that you can like hardbat OR you can like Modern Table Tennis but you can’t really like both. You have to choose. This is not true. The slower pace of the old timer hardbat leads to a totally different kind of chess match. And there doesn’t need to be a choice between the two.

However, if I was going to make the choice, it would definitely be modern TT. And here is why for me:

I love to spin the hell out of the ball. I love to make topspin loops that arc and kick so hard that my opponent hits the return 4 feet over the table. I love the feeling of the ball on the topsheet and sponge when you can feel the topsheet and sponge distort and compress while you are making tangential contact. I love how it feels when the topsheet really grabs the ball hard. I love when I do a sidespin hook shot, that I can aim the ball wide of the table and have it curve around the net and land four feet to the left or right of its original trajectory. I love that I can aim a hook shot at my opponent’s BH and have it curve so much that it ends up exiting the FH side

of the table before the end line. I love what I can do with spin to get the magnus effect to warp the flight of the ball.

You cannot do any of that with hardbat. And while I can admire that hardbat requires totally different skills than modern TT and I am fine with berndtjgmann enjoying hardbat, when it really comes down to it, if he is saying we have to choose between what we like and what berndtjgmann likes, I CHOOSE MODERN TABLE TENNIS every time.

Jawein, you also should know that what berndtjgmann is doing is a learned behavior that is practiced and exhibited by MANY MANY hardbat ZEALOTS.

It was learned and modeled from some of Marty Reisman’s less likable antisocial behavior.

You see, in 1952 Marty was favored to win the WTTC. It would have been HIS YEAR. And in 1952 sponge was introduced. Marty not only lost, but got wiped out and totally embarrassed in an early round. And with the introduction of sponge, Marty was never able to REALLY compete at the top level again.

So for the rest of his life, Marty went around talking about how, without the cheating-sponge that these guys used, none of them would stand a chance against him. It was jealousy and vitriol of the highest order.

Now to me, seeing Marty come to a club in the 1990’s and take HUNDREDS of dollars from the club players who all wanted to bet they could beat him after he hurled all his insults at them about hardbat being for real men and sponge being a game for cheaters....well, there was something entertaining about it. But make no mistake, it was slimy and mean.

And berndtjgmann is really trying to keep that hardbat tradition of insulting modern TT players alive. And the question he asked NextLevel was not a question. It was an insult.

You can pretend it was something else. But it wasn’t.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

The premise of the question I put to Next Level, summarized, was what is there about modern table tennis that would be so attractive to a novice who has never played it or seen it played to make him or her want to take it up?

The question thus was directed with reference to a hypothetical novice, and not to those of you who already play table tennis competitively and presumably are satisfied with the status quo.

If you honestly believe that the number of equipment choices presently available do not pose a problem, then perhaps you can come up with an explanation for the numerous threads and posts by players asking is this setup right for me? Am I using the best combination of racket and rubber to suit my style? What should my style be anyway? Please help. Confusing to competitive players with varying degrees of experience? I’d think so. Confusing to the beginner about to encounter a metaphorical tropical rainforest of choices he/she has never heard of? Most definitely. Confusing to the equipment junkie looking for the rig that will cure his table tennis woes? Oh yeah.

And now to Marty, Satoh and sponge. I’ll ignore your cheap shot pertaining to MANY MANY hardbat ZEALOTS.
(Watch out, those hardbat zealots are armed with hardbats. And they’ve come to shoot your sponge outta your spongeslinger hands).

You posted (thank you) the snippet of the Barna/Reisman final of the 1949 English Open. There is also a snippet on YouTube of Satoh defeating Koczian to win the 1952 Men’s World Singles Championship. Satoh did not cheat; he took advantage of the rule in place at the time, Rule 4, which stated that a racket may be of any size, shape or weight and its covering of any material as long as not white or reflecting like a mirror.

I have viewed both of those videos. And there is no way in Hell that Satoh could have defeated Bergman, Reisman, and Koczian without recourse to that foam rubber sponge racket.

With the introduction of sponge, none of the top level hardbat players after 1961 were able to compete at the top level again.

Hardbat tradition of insulting modern tt players alive? Hoo boy. Hey, we’re spindle shanked fossils with 5 mph forehands, slow and unathletic pushfesting chislers with 5 mph forehands compared to the superbly ripped Hurricane boosted energized Tenergized tigers of today.

The question I asked Next Level was just a question. Now calling a poor old superannuated hardbat zealot not by his given name but by the mocking epithet burntmann well that’s just plain mean. Ooh.

I’d like to pretend that it was something else. But I can’t.

Baal · Feb 28, 2018

jawien said:
I'll let go the face thing : )

Carl are you seriuos?! This is a fantastic piece of table tennis history you wrote about, Marty Reisman situation. Never knew it was such a hostility and war between "hardbats and sponges" ...

Would you hate me, if I created a thread like "Shakespearians vs solipsists" ...? ; ) Such an interesting topic. Although I don't know if I will have time for this due to my other obligations.

Carl, I wish I had written your post!

OK, one last thing on all this. I am 60 years old. I hate to admit it, but there you have it. Time waits for no one. I played my first tournament in the US in 1971. By that time, if you were going to be any sort of significant factor in international table tennis, you used sponge on your blade, usually with inverted. Bengtsson and Johansson and Surbek were my heroes. Already but that time, and I was just a kid then, the kind of equipment used by Barna and Reismann was a complete anachronism. (There was one guy in the US who still used the stuff who could still be pretty dangerous against other American players, I actually knew him, he was a very nice guy, but even then US table tennis was insignificant on the world stage). Already, back then, I listened to a bunch of old guys complaining about it, saying it had ruined the sport blah blah blah. Notably, Houshang Bazorghzadeh, the guy I mentioned above never said that as far as I know.

I personally react very badly to still have to listen to that shit now, in 2018!!!! If people like hardbat, fine play hardbat. If you don't like the sport, don't play it. But if you don't like the sport and no longer play it but continue posting here you are trolling. Period.

The vast majority of active players today, including most of the oldest posters here at TTD, were not born when anything other than inverted rubber was the dominant feature of the sport. In fact, Berndt's #1 hero, Viktor Barna, was active before Berndt was born! It is just weird.

Regarding the topic at hand, the notion that Ma Long and FZD might be better than European players because of their rubber strikes me as completely absurd.

zeio · Feb 28, 2018

Wow, I've never seen Baal used such strong language in his posts before. The Lord is enraged!

MasterMyself · Feb 28, 2018

Seriously, if ML throws away his super magic version of his w968 blade with a highly customised 41.5143deg of blue sponge national H3, and then pick up a Long5 blade and provincial version 41 deg blue sponge H3 from any TT shop, I think he will still be able to beat the players he had beaten. But that's just my guess.

Sent from my SM-N9500 using Tapatalk

NextLevel · Feb 28, 2018

zeio said:
NextLevel more or less answered the question. I'd just add that, even if they can't get the "real" real deal, the least they could do is try out the provincial H3, to see for themselves how it plays and why the Chinese play that way.

To address NextLevel's concern over my claim, it actually didn't come from me but real experts. Below is an excerpt from a news article right after the WTTC 2017 about the new European Branch of Chinese Table Tennis Institute in Luxembourg. The gist is that compared to China, the technical ideologies of many European coaches are dated, quite a number of them are even stuck in the '90s. The ETTU now sends along the coaches from every association. While the kids train, the coaches learn as well. After the day session, a night session for coaches is held, to let them in on the latest and greatest developement in table tennis. The aim is to get them to change their comprehension of table tennis, and to implement the new stuff in daily training.

http://wenhui.news365.com.cn/html/2017-06/06/content_561579.html

That's not the first time it's said. Cai Zhenhua mentioned the reluctance of European coaches to change in 2011. China wants to help Europe, but they have to extend their hands. Just like how Europe did it in the '80s, by undergoing technical innovation and taking a page from Asia, ultimately reaching a higher height than Asia.

http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2011-05-16/03115578388.shtml

In early 2009, Cai Zhenhua pointed out China fell behind in late 80s for the same reason, because their coaches, players and even the entire table tennis community were living in past glory. He added that psychological trauma is very difficult to recover, and once your confidence is hurt, it's very likely to fall behind and get beat.

http://sports.sohu.com/20090228/n262515924.shtml

To be fair, what you are saying is more relevant at a level of table tennis that I am not well acquainted with in Europe. The focus of coaches at lower levels is the truly informs a lot of these statements. But at the level of the pros, or at the top 200 level, these differences are far less pronounced and almost invisible. Though there is no avoiding the importance of the system that produces what the top level works with.

In the US, there are lots of Asian coaches and the top clubs bring in Chinese provincial players so I cannot extrapolate. The level is lower, but the game structure is highly Chinese.

Lightzy · Feb 28, 2018

Baal said:
Regarding the topic at hand, the notion that Ma Long and FZD might be better than European players because of their rubber strikes me as completely absurd.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "because of their rubber", but it definitely doesn't sound absurd.
It's the logical continuation of a principle obvious to any TT player.
At low level u get best results with forgiving slow equipment because technique isn't reliable enough yet to get the ball on the table with faster equipment. The more solid and reliable the technique, you can use more unforgiving equipment with the same reliability.
So why wouldn't that logic extend to the highest levels also? If ML and FZD have such perfect technique the likes of which has never been seen (I think it's true anyway but let's say) then it makes sense they could be reliable with even more unforgiving equipment than everyone else.

And the other thing is simply personal customization. In CNT there are experts there helping match and design custom equipment to players (even if the players just end up preferring their viscaria..).
So it is also reasonable that if you give a player EXACTLY what he's most comfortable with he'll have better results. I know this exists in Europe also but to a much lesser extent. I have some friends who receive promotion equipment which is 'best-make-quality' (including #2 and #3 players where I live) but nobody is actually making blades specifically for them like in CNT.

jawien · Mar 1, 2018

OhWell said:
Aspects of this issue to think about:
- Socio-economic causes of pro players' equipment choices?
- Socio-economic causes of young, developing athletes' equipment choices?
- Socio-economic causes of the kind of products a given TT manufacturer researches and develops?
- Socio-economic causes of the allowed but not sanctioned status of booster within the ITTF?
[...]

This is actually an interesting way to approach the subject. I'll give it a thought.

@If H3 National was as easy available as Tenergy, there wouldn't be any grounds to hint about the F1 ...

Baal · Mar 1, 2018

What I nean is what soeone else wrote. Give Ma Long or FZD some H3 and booster like what any of us buy. Give them a few weeks with it. The result? They would still be the best two players in the world and they would beat Gauzy every time. Nevertheless they probably get rubbers designed to their own precise specs but the effects are probably quite marginal.

jawien · Mar 1, 2018

Baal said:
What I nean is what soeone else wrote. Give Ma Long or FZD some H3 and booster like what any of us buy. Give them a few weeks with it. The result? They would still be the best two players in the world and they would beat Gauzy every time. Nevertheless they probably get rubbers designed to their own precise specs but the effects are probably quite marginal.

Give those Europeans H3N and you'll see after few years ... ha ha ; )

OhWell · Mar 1, 2018

jawien said:
This is actually an interesting way to approach the subject. I'll give it a thought.

@Very shortly, if H3 National was as easy available as Tenergy, there wouldn't be any grounds to hint about the F1 like situation.

Yes, but the issue of why the h3 nat isn't available is a very complex one. Just to point out a few.

1. If ITTF cared, they could regulate the availability of h3 nat. Let's not even get into boosters. Let's just talk about sponge + topsheet combination. It doesn't take fancy equipment to figure out the blue sponge isn't the stock Neo sponge. But if they wanted, they could go further and assign regulated numbers to sponges just like for topsheets.

- So: whatever we may say about the Chinese national team's own motivations, our story HAS to include the ITTF's motivations for maintaining the status quo. (Which is obviously not a straightforward matter of them wanting the Chinese an edge.)

2. It's obvious why Butterfly and the like want their players to use their regular rubbers: selling those rubbers is a very lucrative business, and getting players to use them is good marketing. But notice, off the shelf tenergy in particular is so good that most of the CNT uses it for backhand. With this in mind, I doubt that it is very helpful to explain why a pro player like Boll (and everyone else) uses off the shelf tenergy is in terms of them refusing to cheat, whereas CNT players will cheat to get whatever advantage they can. We should instead ask about the commercial motivations for companies like Butterfly to make their off the shelf products so high performance, and what the commercial motivations might be for a company like DHS to favor pushing low tech, lower QC rubbers on the shelves - which don't perform well enough and reliably enough for pros.

Etc..

zeio · Mar 1, 2018

1. ITTF won't and can't, when DHS is one of the biggest sponsors, if not the biggest. The Technical Leaflet T4 and LARC are there to regulate the rubbers used in ITTF events, nothing else. Sharara has said that the ITTF doesn't care about amateur table tennis. Use whatever you feel like. Glued H3, glued Sriver, glued Bryce, be my guest. CNT once mandated Friendship to not make the 755, the long pips used by Deng Yaping, available to the market. I doubt the ITTF knew about it back in the days. Butterfly stopped taking custom blade orders roughly 2 years ago, but the sponsored pros can still get them. No fair!

2. For that, you need to understand the difference in volume DHS has to churn out. The table tennis population in China as given by LGL is made up of 2,000 pros, 30,000 amateurs in sports schools, and 83 million hobbyists(2 times a week, 1 hour and above each). Butterfly produces roughly 1 million rubbers a year. ESN produces double that number. Say 1/10 of that population is serious about playing, that means a demand of roughly 16 million rubbers, on the conservative assumption that they replace their rubbers once a year.

Some food for thought.

p.s. Technical Leaflet T3 should be T4.

zeio · Mar 1, 2018

UpSideDownCarl said:
So the secret to the CNT play quality is hours and hours and hours and hours of training. And a philosophy of hitting the ball very hard while spinning the ball. And then this rubber that lets you hit the ball very hard while maintaining control, starts helping. Since the CNT players are systematically trained from a very young age, the advantage starts from there.

That.

It's my experience that the CNT rarely talks about equipment on TV or in interviews. They mostly talk about the hours they put in as the deciding factor between China and Europe. Here is an example from late 2012.

　　“奥恰是真的爱球，也是我见过欧洲选手中训练最刻苦的一个。欧洲实行俱乐部制，他常常一个人练，也没人陪他一起练，也挺可怜的。而我们所有的训练都是围绕着主力，想怎么练就怎么练。但奥恰就是喜欢训练，空下来还喜欢研究乒乓球板。”刘国梁毫不掩饰对奥恰的欣赏。
　　奥恰的刻苦符合人们对于德国运动员的所有想象。但这一切似乎并不适用于波尔。在听闻波尔每天训练只有一小时后，中国队本来还不相信，特地求证了一番。“经过多方证实，波尔每天最多就练一堂课，最长不超过一个半小时。再加上他的伤病，能打到现在这份上，也真不容易。”刘国梁羡慕地说，“欧洲选手就是这样，该休息的时候休息，该度假的时候度假。从不强迫自己，也没人强迫得了他。”
　　说到这，刘国梁还爆料说，波尔其实是个“妻管严”。“我听说萨姆索诺夫的老婆管他挺严的，后来才知道波尔的老婆管他更严。有时候教练电话打到家里，问‘波尔上午训练怎么没来啊。’他老婆会说‘哦，昨天睡太晚了，今天就不练了’。同样的情况放到中国球员身上，肯定打不过人家。”

http://sports.sohu.com/20121211/n360070299.shtml

LGL thinks that DO has a true passion for tt. He's the most hard-working European player he's ever seen. Due to the club obligation, he is often training alone, which LGL finds a shame. In the CNT, all trainings are centered around the core players. They can train to their heart's content. DO likes to train, and he's an EJ, too.

Not for Boll. After learning that Boll trains only 1 hour a day, much to the surprise of the CNT, they went out of their way to verify it. It was true. Boll spends time training in 1 session a day only, never over 1.5 hours. LGL said admirably that it's amazing for Boll to play at this level with all the injuries. "European players are just like that. Time for rest? Time to rest. Time for vacation? Time to go on vacation. They never force themselves and no one can force them."

Here is another tidbit. Boll is hen-pecked. One time Boll didn't show up for the morning session, and the coach called his home. Her wife picked up and said "he stayed up late last night, so he won't be coming today." They can't imagine it happening to a CNT player.

berndtjgmann · Mar 1, 2018

Interesting. According to Wikipedia, as of December 2017, USA Table Tennis had approximately 9,000 members and 19 million recreational players. No sports schools as yet; at least none that I know of.

jawien · Mar 1, 2018

zeio said:
1. ITTF won't and can't, when DHS is one of the biggest sponsors, if not the biggest. The Technical Leaflet T3 and LARC are there to regulate the rubbers used in ITTF events, nothing else. Sharara has said that the ITTF doesn't care about amateur table tennis. [...]

Is my understanding correct (I'm a bit of a layman here), that ITTF rules specially those pertaining to the equipment apply to:

1. Events organized by the ITTF ("World Tour" like events, National Teams events, WTTT(T)C, WTC etc.
2. In Europe team competitions organized under ETTU. Basically every team in Europe plays in accordance to those rules.
3. USATT events (right?)
4. Possibly other parts of the tt world ... sorry not to enumerate those separately.

My main question. Does i.e. China's SL has to adhere to the ITTF's regulations? If not, than what it basically means, is that out of this vast tt population (pros, amateurs, hobbyists), regulations would only apply to the CNTs players? Like a few hundred people in China?

@Definitely the tt population and rubbers production issues shows new waters for our ships of analysis.

OhWell · Mar 1, 2018

Zeio, You know so much about this (way more than me that’s for sure). Really appreciate you chiming in.

To clarify:

About 1: I was trying to illustrate the thought that to understand the issue of CNT nat rubbers, we can’t merely look at the CNT’s motivation for providing custom rubbers to their players. We also need, for instance, to examine the ITTF’s motivation for letting them do it.

(The fact that there is an obvious technical solution to force everyone to use off the shelf rubbers just makes it plain as day that something else is motivating the ittf here - they can’t hide behind the detection excuse like for boosters. I should add, im inclined to think we should try to understand the ittf’s approach to booster from their approach to cnt rubbers. Even though they have a better excuse with boosters, the motivations are unlikely to be very different.)

About 2: we are on the same page. DHS’s business model for rubbers relies on extreme volume, whereas Bty/ESN’s relies on higher margins per unit sold.

I wonder if LGL’s estimate is on the low end.

zeio · Mar 1, 2018

jawien said:
Is my understanding correct (I'm a bit of a layman here), that ITTF rules specially those pertaining to the equipment apply to:

1. Events organized by the ITTF ("World Tour" like events, National Teams events, WTTT(T)C, WTC etc.
2. In Europe team competitions organized under ETTU. Basically every team in Europe plays in accordance to those rules.
3. USATT events (right?)
4. Possibly other parts of the tt world ... sorry not to enumerate those separately.

My main question. Does i.e. China's SL has to adhere to the ITTF's regulations? If not, than what it basically means, is that out of this vast tt population (pros, amateurs, hobbyists), regulations would only apply to the CNTs players? Like a few hundred people in China?

@Definitely the tt population and rubbers production issues shows new waters for our ships of analysis.

Basically, all ITTF events follow the ITTF regulations. Refer to section "3 REGULATIONS FOR INTERNATIONAL COMPETITIONS" of the handbook for more details.

Domestic tournaments held by your association usually follow the ITTF rules, unless otherwise stated. They'd state what rules they don't follow on the prospectus.

CTTSL follows the ITTF regulation pretty much to the T. Players' rackets get inspected before each match. The only thing different is the umpires use Chinese.

Most amateur tournaments in China are like a zoo.

Andy44 · Mar 1, 2018

Are there any CNT players, or other high level players who grew up in the Chinese training system, who use T05 or some other non-tacky rubber on forehand? I agree with most of the posters here that CNT dominance comes almost entirely from better athletes drawn from a vastly larger pool of candidates, plus better and harder training starting from a young age. The equipment is probably only of marginal importance for their great results, but does have a big impact on the way they get those results. Which makes me wonder whether a hypothetical CNT player who grew up in the system except using only Tenergy could reach the same level as Ma Long or FZD. Maybe softer, non-tacky rubber would be a limiting factor for the most powerful forehands and he wouldn't be as good. Or maybe the ability to use shorter strokes with quicker recovery would make up for the power loss and he'd be even better.

SFF_lib · Mar 1, 2018

Andy44 said:
Are there any CNT players, or other high level players who grew up in the Chinese training system, who use T05 or some other non-tacky rubber on forehand? I agree with most of the posters here that CNT dominance comes almost entirely from better athletes drawn from a vastly larger pool of candidates, plus better and harder training starting from a young age. The equipment is probably only of marginal importance for their great results, but does have a big impact on the way they get those results. Which makes me wonder whether a hypothetical CNT player who grew up in the system except using only Tenergy could reach the same level as Ma Long or FZD. Maybe softer, non-tacky rubber would be a limiting factor for the most powerful forehands and he wouldn't be as good. Or maybe the ability to use shorter strokes with quicker recovery would make up for the power loss and he'd be even better.

It's very unlikely.
I started training at the age of 10 in China. Every child used Hurricane type rubber on FH. Some used tacky rubber on BH. That puts a lot of demand on training which later results in stronger stroke.

In terms of recovery, check out Xu Xin's games before 2015. He uses big stroke every time he loops. Yet he is able to recover pretty fast.

Passionate about TT

jawien · Mar 1, 2018

Andy44 said:
Are there any CNT players, or other high level players who grew up in the Chinese training system, who use T05 or some other non-tacky rubber on forehand? I agree with most of the posters here that CNT dominance comes almost entirely from better athletes drawn from a vastly larger pool of candidates, plus better and harder training starting from a young age. [...]

Forgive me my ignorant question, but my understanding is that, it is really hard to play pro or semi-pro level, with regular versions of China originated rubbers, without some kind of a booster right? At least this is what I learned from local players who used them. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

How can Europeans even try to learn to play this way, if they have limited access to those national versions that are ITTF approved and are good "on their own", and do not require any of that?

Andy44 · Mar 1, 2018

jawien said:
Forgive me my ignorant question, but my understanding is that, it is really hard to play pro or semi-pro level, with regular versions of China originated rubbers, without some kind of a buster right? At least this is what I learned from local players who used them. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

I think it's a good question. I can't answer it but I've heard the same as you, that not only do pro players boost their tacky rubber, but even that the pro-level sponges are made to be boosted in very specific ways and don't work very well without the proper treatment. Maybe that's why they're not commercially available.

Edit: Missed the point of the question. Jawien's asking about regular commercially available versions, not pro versions. Still an interesting question and still can't answer it.

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