"Euro" vs "Chinese" Play Style

[Epid3xia]

Epid3xia, I'm not sure how long you've been playing, but I am going to assume that you have been playing several years at least and already have a solid foundation in modern offensive table tennis. I will also assume that part of the reason you started the thread is because you believe that if your strokes were more like Ma Long/ZJK/FZD and other top Chinese players, you would probably play better -- especially the way they hit their forehands.

And, if I am correct about that, then I respectfully suggest that it is already too late to make any substantive change in the overall shape of either your forehand or backhand and that any attempt to do it would take years if you succeeded at all. Chinese players strokes are shaped the way they are from childhood, and I think it is in equal parts a product of training techniques and the use of hard tacky rubbers on relatively slow blades in kids.

The best thing you can do is refine what you have and make it better by training to make it completely automatic and reliable, which also means getting physically stronger, fitter, etc.

In other words, if you train like Chinese players do, you will make massive improvements even with very European strokes. Is this possible where you live and can you fit it into the rest of your life? Depends a lot on your clubs and coaches and your work or job, and willingness to subject yourself to it. Personally, I would love to take about 6 months off and just do that, just to see what would happen.

Lacking that, for me personally, I win a lot more when I keep Appelgren in mind, and Persson. And Primorac. I'm not you, I am older and slower, but I know a lot of kids who are not going to be professional players but who would win a lot more if they thought a bit more in terms just keeping the damn ball on the table, which doesn't necessarily mean playing soft all the time, it means always playing in a way that keeps you in balance and ready, while keeping your opponent off balance.

I am increasingly convinced that staying in balance during a point is one of the single most important things amateur players can improve.

Thank you for your worries!

My natural style of playing the ball was already a more "chinese" aproach at the beginning of me playing TT and that made it easier for me to teach things by myself with mirrors and shadow work and slow motion videos of chinese players to shape and direct my motion slowly into the direction of the "chinese" approach. I alternated a lot between shadow work, watching slow motion footage and playing the ball with a partner. And so I could shape my general approach of my forhand and footwork.

It was and still is great fun for me to do it by myself. It helps me to train my eye to observe and see what details lay in these complex motions and I understand a lot more of what I am doing. And I lov to develop a more claer feeling on how my motions are. It is great fun for me to always improve and learn new little things in my motions. I guess that's one thing I love so much about TT: always improving myself and learning new stuff.

 

[NextLevel]

I am thinking Next Level might object to my last post based on something he posted awhile back. If I am remembering correctly (not a sure thing) he mentioned that he actually accomplished a pretty big change in technique which is how he went from 1400 to over 2000 in a few years. If I am remembering correctly, my response in advance would be that now that he has played longer and has surpassed 2000, he is pretty formed now and is not going to be able to make additional major changes in the shape of his stroke.

Of course we can all improve and tweak and refine and get more consistent. But not a major reshaping.

I don't disagree with you at all. The challenge with my forehand has always been making it smaller and more technically correct and not making it larger. I have always wanted my forehand to be more like my backhand. It gets closer every day but never quite gets there. You can make technical changes but the rewards tend to be relatively small unless the technique is just flat out bad.

The biggest technical change I am seeing a pro make today is Quadri Aruna on his backhand. The details aren't public and I only watch his matches in the French league but it is fun to see the small but important changes in his game as his backhand gets better as a rally looping and even opening stroke.

 

[NextLevel]

some years back i had this wacky idea that i would have to reconstruct my forehand loop from scratch to a more "chinese" stroke because it was my weak point. all i managed to do was fix my timing and develop better mechanics in pretty much the same stroke that i already had. if you insisted on technically improving your forehand more and more it would slowly start looking more like a "chinese style" stroke. the problem is, you have lots of other areas to work on than just one stroke and the chances are that you will probably get better results if you work on other things and keep the maybe-not-so-powerful-but-consistent chicken wing.

as long as its good enough for your level at least. watching cnt vs euro players matches, would you say the chinese win because of more powerful forehands or because their service and receive is better, they get to attack first and they make fewer mistakes?

More powerful forehands definitely play a role. But I agree with your overall point that you have to get a chance to use that forehand. There are lot of balls that Europeans simply spin up that the Chinese just eliminate. That counts for something over time. And it isn't always clearly technical, as the quality of athletes China sends into TT would go into soccer or baseball in other parts of the world. I also think that the equipment and boosting issues are underrated at the pro level. Remember that a few of the top Chinese failed racket control at ITTF events after speed glue was banned.

 

[NextLevel]

Epid3xia, I'm not sure how long you've been playing, but I am going to assume that you have been playing several years at least and already have a solid foundation in modern offensive table tennis. I will also assume that part of the reason you started the thread is because you believe that if your strokes were more like Ma Long/ZJK/FZD and other top Chinese players, you would probably play better -- especially the way they hit their forehands.

And, if I am correct about that, then I respectfully suggest that it is already too late to make any substantive change in the overall shape of either your forehand or backhand and that any attempt to do it would take years if you succeeded at all. Chinese players strokes are shaped the way they are from childhood, and I think it is in equal parts a product of training techniques and the use of hard tacky rubbers on relatively slow blades in kids.

The best thing you can do is refine what you have and make it better by training to make it completely automatic and reliable, which also means getting physically stronger, fitter, etc.

In other words, if you train like Chinese players do, you will make massive improvements even with very European strokes. Is this possible where you live and can you fit it into the rest of your life? Depends a lot on your clubs and coaches and your work or job, and willingness to subject yourself to it. Personally, I would love to take about 6 months off and just do that, just to see what would happen.

Lacking that, for me personally, I win a lot more when I keep Appelgren in mind, and Persson. And Primorac. I'm not you, I am older and slower, but I know a lot of kids who are not going to be professional players but who would win a lot more if they thought a bit more in terms just keeping the damn ball on the table, which doesn't necessarily mean playing soft all the time, it means always playing in a way that keeps you in balance and ready, while keeping your opponent off balance.

I am increasingly convinced that staying in balance during a point is one of the single most important things amateur players can improve.

I suspect you are being too kind and largely overestimating OP's level. I haven't met a good player who framed the issue like this, ever. Seriously.

 

[Epid3xia]

I suspect you are being too kind and largely overestimating OP's level. I haven't met a good player who framed the issue like this, ever. Seriously.

So what is it that makes you think that I am not a good player? And what do you think is wrong with the way I frame this issue which I intentionaly overdraw a bit?

 

[NextLevel]

So what is it that makes you think that I am not a good player? And what do you think is wrong with the way I frame this issue which I intentionaly overdraw a bit?

As I said, I have never read seen a good player frame the issue like this - maybe it is because good players contaminate the minds of each other. The good players even when looking at technique look at the other issues related to nature and nurture, especially if they have tried to develop other good players. Players who write things like what you wrote are often usually expressing CNT worship in other ways. Sure you can show me up and I will stand corrected.

 

[Archosaurus]

Perhaps the style is not necessarily the ideal end result due to the training, but just the preferred means to the end when the athlete undergoes such training?

In other words, Ma Long and Wang Liqin play as they do just because they train as they do.

Surely, there IS a performance increase in being able to perform physically more intensive movements in a shorter time with better consistency: but that advantage would manifest itself in some way regardless of how long your strokes are. The long strokes are just what is selected as the advantage, probably due to a careful analysis of how points are won in modern table tennis, and what the equipment is best at.

Without a question, the Chinese would still be on top even if they all played with short strokes, simply because they're just better players. Have we all forgot Kong Linghui and Zhang Jike all of a sudden?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

"Euro" vs "Chinese" Play Style

I suspect you are being too kind and largely overestimating OP's level. I haven't met a good player who framed the issue like this, ever. Seriously.

I was actually thinking, as a result of this post:

Thank you for your worries!

My natural style of playing the ball was already a more "chinese" aproach at the beginning of me playing TT and that made it easier for me to teach things by myself with mirrors and shadow work and slow motion videos of chinese players to shape and direct my motion slowly into the direction of the "chinese" approach. I alternated a lot between shadow work, watching slow motion footage and playing the ball with a partner. And so I could shape my general approach of my forhand and footwork.

It was and still is great fun for me to do it by myself. It helps me to train my eye to observe and see what details lay in these complex motions and I understand a lot more of what I am doing. And I lov to develop a more claer feeling on how my motions are. It is great fun for me to always improve and learn new little things in my motions. I guess that's one thing I love so much about TT: always improving myself and learning new stuff.

That it would probably be worth it for Epid3xia to see footage of himself. Perhaps he has. But one thing I know, when you see footage of yourself the first time, it is often eye opening. And it takes seeing a lot of footage of yourself to really know, how what you are doing actually looks from the outside.

Personally, I would love to see some footage too. And that would clear up if NextLevel is right or not about level and the way Epid3xia's posts have been framed and the odd naïveté that emanates from him. Him seeing footage might be enough of a reality check.

These do sound like the inquiries of a player trying to learn without the help of a coach and trying to figure things out for himself.

And wouldn't you know it, the ArcMan pops up right on cue.

How you doin' ArcMan? I got worried about you.

 

[Archosaurus]

Carl, as "a player trying to learn without the help of a coach and trying to figure things out for himself" I can safely say that the simplistic thought of "CNT is better because they swing bigger, stronger swings" comes just from a low level hitter's experience, where bigger IS better, up to the point where people start blocking those big shots pretty violently. Of course, most people with that kind of understanding of the sport seldom get to play with people who will make them look stupid.



I have been away these recent days, in the hellish process of pre-production work for "something".
I do not know the meaning of a good night's sleep, anymore. So, I have not exactly had time to post stupid opinions on the forums, lately.


Although I must admit that something is happening to me. I played some table tennis today, and I won most of my points via chopping and touch shots. I'll have to really drill my forehand hit more, lest I actually develop some touch. Hahah.

 

[NextLevel]

These are my idols.

This is me.

Don't you dare laugh.

 

[Archosaurus]

NL, what is there to laugh about? Those pushes and blocks are great.

 

[laistrogian]

As I said, I have never read seen a good player frame the issue like this - maybe it is because good players contaminate the minds of each other. The good players even when looking at technique look at the other issues related to nature and nurture, especially if they have tried to develop other good players. Players who write things like what you wrote are often usually expressing CNT worship in other ways. Sure you can show me up and I will stand corrected.

Not saying that OP is a CNT worshipper but I do agree that such "chinese" vs "european" play style isn't something worth considering in the first place seriously. Most people are too focused with professional players and their advanced technique when most people (with some exceptions) in this forum are below USATT 2000.

Sticking to basic strokes is always the best thing to do and your own style will come forth in the end. Moreover, whether it's chinese or european playstyle, footwork takes precedent over everything else. You can't hit the ball hard when you're not in position first

 

[ttmonster]

Good job on the third Set NextLevel !!!

 

[NextLevel]

NL, what is there to laugh about? Those pushes and blocks are great.

Good job on the third Set NextLevel !!!

Ooops, wrong video

This is me:

 

[Ilia Minkin]

all throughout the 80's and 90's the chinese took for granted that the europeans are and always will be more powerful at rallying away from the table and that they have to find alternative methods to beat them. namely service and receive, taking control of the point as early as possible by staying closer to the table. to achieve this they needed strong 3rd ball attacks and superior footwork to be able to pressure the opponent from close to the table. those big flashy counter looping forehands are actually a consequence of perfecting a style of play that never had away from the table counter looping as a goal.

Are the statistics similar to your feelings or do you get surprised sometimes?


There are surprises, I think I have a aggressive backhand flick, the analysis confirm this as well. I win a lot of direct points from it, however even if I don’t win a straight point with the backhand flick I get into a good position in the rally to win the point. On the other hand the analysis shows that I'm in a disadvantage after the 3rd ball after the flick, I never really realized this.


Could this give you an extra thrust to your career?


The analysis can be destroying especially against Ma Long. After my apparently good backhand flick and the second ball. If I can change that and use my strengths against him better, by having a good connection between my strength and avoid my weaknesses then the game against him can be a lot more open.


You speak a lot about Ma Long, the worlds best player, who you haven’t beaten yet. Is he frustrating you or is he the scale where you compare yourself with?


I was very happy when I won the first two sets against him at the German open. However it was more frustrating that I didn’t have a chance the next two sets. Ma Long lost just one game in all tournaments this year, 13/14 tournaments he won. He is also dominating the number 2 or 3 in the world the same as me.


With his confidence he is playing table tennis from another planet.


Self-doubt was Ma Long biggest weakness before.


Exactly, it didn’t help him that he never won a big title. Since he became World champion, he left the self-doubt behind him.


What makes Ma Long so special?


If I can get the ball a few times over the net against him, I’m in an advantage. The problem is he is destroying me within the first few balls. I need to play the first balls against him different, starting with my service as well as my receive.

Full interview: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...ghtful-Interview-with-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-2016!

 

[NextLevel]

Full interview: http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...ghtful-Interview-with-Dimitrij-Ovtcharov-2016!

Yes, but part of what happens on the first few balls is related to what happens when you make that mistake on the serve receive and let the opponent open. Not everyone can put away easy balls with the same level of power and that power at the higher levels is the difference between getting the ball blocked back and getting the ball blocked off the table.

I can pop up the ball against some players and just step back because I know that their opening will not go through me. In fact, I used to play that way a lot when I was under 1900 and just need to fight through matches where I couldn't return someone's serve properly, especially if the player was under 1750. The same thing happens at the higher levels, just in a different way.

Dima is actually one of the few players who can even match someone like Ma Long power wise. In Europe, Dima is a bully. He can loop the ball once and win points that other players would have to take a few more shots to win. The reason why players like Freitas have little chance vs. Dima is because the power is too much. People like Ma Long face FZD and XX and so on so they just don't find Dima surprising. Having Dima as a teammate is part of the reason why Samsonov doesn't mind facing the Chinese as much.

 

[NextLevel]

The stroke in the link below - at 3 mins 55 sec in - is almost uniquely Chinese and is what many people think of when they think of the Chinese wiping out weak balls. If I was at home, I would have given you a better link from a better video. It is the ability to do such strokes that makes it easy for the CNT to wipe out choppers (Boll is also a chopper killer but he does it a little differently).

 

[cakezxc280]

This is what high school basketball is like in much of the US, including the enthusiasm of the crowd.

Places that care about something a lot tend to be better at it.

I have actually visited provincial training centers in China. They are factories. Good players only come from those places, and they barely pretend to put the kids in school (although I have heard they are doing a bit more than a few years ago).

The crowd in this video is one of the least ive seen in my years going to the finals. Usually the better schools that gets to the finals will field a few buses of supporters that might not even know a single thing about TT, and theyll still be chanting for the players.

Also, the SG scene is filled with chinese provincial team exiles lol. The yellow vs green one in that video are 2 of the best "foreign talents" in their eras. They are good, but not the best weve seen. There was a point where our entire starting lineup solely consisted of chinese sports scholars.

True, back in the earlier days they came in with shitty academics, but there are some pretty extreme outliars. There was this guy called Zhang Sai who was at MSH 2 years before I went in, from what Ive heard and read, he simply dominated the interschool scene the entire 6 years of his secondary-high school career. After MSH (which was a top 20 secondary school in the country), he went to Hwa Chong Instituition, which was tied for the best academic high school along with Raffles Institution, as his grades made the cut for their scholarship program. The most extreme case saw the player (my 4 year senior back in MSH), going to Raffles Institution BY ACADEMIC RESULTS and ending up in Imperial College London, reading Aeronautical Engineering (while his table tennis skills decay away with the lack of practice, sadly).

Also, Faiz, if you didnt know this already, there is a saying in the chinese speaking regions within the TT circle:
"Inter-China competitions are harder than any competition in the world".
I dont think that needs any more explanations.

 

[Epid3xia]

As I said, I have never read seen a good player frame the issue like this - maybe it is because good players contaminate the minds of each other. The good players even when looking at technique look at the other issues related to nature and nurture, especially if they have tried to develop other good players. Players who write things like what you wrote are often usually expressing CNT worship in other ways. Sure you can show me up and I will stand corrected.

I gave my points and your points a lot of thought and came to a conclusion:
If I would make the post again that I did in the beginning I would change a lot.

Before this post I couldn't just accept that the chinese players are so much better than the other players and started to search why. I started the search in watching the videos of matches. And the most prominent sign of where the chinese were superior to the rest was the attacking forhand. The rest of the game looked, very generously said, fairly even. But at least in the backhand department where the "euro" players were mostly stronger.

Right now I think that the "chinese" way of playing has more potential in its technicality than the "euro" way. This is only from a theoretical point of view where circumstances of reality don't matter.

For me this is a reason to think about adapting techniques from the "chinese" play style to enhance what is already in the "euro" playstyle and to rethink what is already prominent. This is not for the individual player who has already developed a play style which mostly is very personal and is almost impossible to change. But it is for the whole way of thinking about the ideal way of playing TT in the culture of "euro" style TT.

I have seen swedish players of the next generation adapting from the "chinese" style of movement which shows similar performance (when able to play optimal shots) against the "chinese" like the "chinese" against the "chinese" setup.
I can't remember all players I watched but Anton Kallberg vs Fan Zehndong (

) shows what I mean.

Sure he lost and made a lot of mistakes which Ovtcharov, for example, won't do due to more training. But there is a glimps of where a more "chinese" approach of play shows its advantages. I see it like this the things Kallberg did in a more "chinese" approach made him look as strong as he was and not other things. Because everything else was just not up to par to Fan Zhendong.


I don't think that the "chinese" movement style gives you an advantage per se because there is a lot more to playing TT than general movement style as all of you say. But it has more potential and to get someone else than a chinese into the top 4 of TT it might be required that the general public thinking of play adapts the realisticaly adaptable things of what is part of what makes it so strong. The things that happened untill now are not changable but the things that happen from now on forwards are.

 

[NextLevel]

I gave my points and your points a lot of thought and came to a conclusion:
If I would make the post again that I did in the beginning I would change a lot.

Before this post I couldn't just accept that the chinese players are so much better than the other players and started to search why. I started the search in watching the videos of matches. And the most prominent sign of where the chinese were superior to the rest was the attacking forhand. The rest of the game looked, very generously said, fairly even. But at least in the backhand department where the "euro" players were mostly stronger.

Right now I think that the "chinese" way of playing has more potential in its technicality than the "euro" way. This is only from a theoretical point of view where circumstances of reality don't matter.

For me this is a reason to think about adapting techniques from the "chinese" play style to enhance what is already in the "euro" playstyle and to rethink what is already prominent. This is not for the individual player who has already developed a play style which mostly is very personal and is almost impossible to change. But it is for the whole way of thinking about the ideal way of playing TT in the culture of "euro" style TT.

I have seen swedish players of the next generation adapting from the "chinese" style of movement which shows similar performance (when able to play optimal shots) against the "chinese" like the "chinese" against the "chinese" setup.
I can't remember all players I watched but Anton Kallberg vs Fan Zehndong (

) shows what I mean.

Sure he lost and made a lot of mistakes which Ovtcharov, for example, won't do due to more training. But there is a glimps of where a more "chinese" approach of play shows its advantages. I see it like this the things Kallberg did in a more "chinese" approach made him look as strong as he was and not other things. Because everything else was just not up to par to Fan Zhendong.


I don't think that the "chinese" movement style gives you an advantage per se because there is a lot more to playing TT than general movement style as all of you say. But it has more potential and to get someone else than a chinese into the top 4 of TT it might be required that the general public thinking of play adapts the realisticaly adaptable things of what is part of what makes it so strong. The things that happened untill now are not changable but the things that happen from now on forwards are.

So you think the Chinese are superior in just "the attacking forehand". So things like serve and serve receive and short game play (remember that the average rally in table tennis is usually less than 4 shots) - where did that factor into your analysis? Rally strokes or sometimes third ball strokes don't matter if you don't get an opportunity to use them.

But again, you are still not addressing the amount of investment that China makes in table tennis. Where else in the world do you have who schools and provincial systems and clubs dedicated to creating and selecting table tennis professionals? Otrwhere former players at the highest level are the national team coaches throughout the system and are massively compensated?

Some of the innovations that China is making today are simply ideas that were founded in Western TT (Sweden most notoriously) and were built into Chinese training. But of course, the Chinese gave us multiball and other things, so such sharing and continuous innovation never really ends.

Many people acknowledge that the Chinese forehand techniques are superior in a variety of ways. But if you think that is what separates them from the West, you are being pretty naive. China invests a lot into everything about table tennis. I gave the example of failing racket control multiple times after the speed glue ban. They clearly boost. They host major events when the rest of the world cannot fund or support them. TT as an ITTF supported sport would probably die without Chinese support.

Even on the forehand, Timo Boll has publicly said that the equipment he uses will not support Ma Long's technique. No one sells MA Long's rubber and by all accounts, it is heavily boosted, against the ITTF regulations. Does that matter to you?

Apart from *maybe* Ma Long, every player in the world has technical errors if one is looking for textbook perfection. At the highest level, it is more than technique that makes you a winner. Top level pros don't use textbook technique - their technique checks the boxes for certain things and the rest is evolutionary development.