How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

[LDM7]

Ha, 1hr of 2hr session was recorded, editing can do wonders!!! Maybe 5 mins out of an hour used, not hard to imagine what the other 55 mins was like!!! More bad than good!!

Anyway, the sessions are based on 3 main areas.

1) Serve and 3rd ball attack, 5th ball follows on. spin rather than power/speed. Find the right ratio of spin, power and speed, decision making, full out attack on the ‘right‘ ball. Safer ball with good spin and placement, enough speed etc.

2) Return of serve, reading spin, placement, and how Gun ho you go with the return of serve, decision making again!! Risky, Safe or somewhere in between, how to put some pressure on opponent, what’s uncomfortable and not the return they expect. Tom liked some swipe pushes I did, playing with the spin rather than against it as well. These types of return are not really used at our level.

3) Recovery, footwork, movement and ‘smart‘ anticipation, moving in advance to a slightly advantageous position, because there is a higher % or likelihood that the stroke opponent will play will be to a certain area of the table. Similar to ‘resetting your middle/ centre’ when receiving serve, which we have discussed previously.
Item 3 is always part of items 1 and 2

Last session we worked on which serve action was best for me.
BH serve, FH pendulum, FH reverse pendulum, FH hook????? (Didn’t even go down the FH tomahawk route, I have that serve but use it rarely)
The outcome was use FH pendulum and FH hook serve, I was reading the return better, smart anticipation was better. Therefore 3rd ball attack was better.
Disguise of hook serve is good, opponents can become very uncomfortable when receiving my hook serve ( at my level or slightly higher )
Disguise of FH pendulum is I would class as average at best, so I’ll work on how that can be improved. But I have good spin variation, placement etc

So, BH serve, use for safety and faster recovery.
FH reverse pendulum has some good variation and deception but is edged out by how I recover and anticipate serve return.

These 4 serve actions will still be practiced and hopefully improved, but there will be generally 2 serve actions used in the majority. It is still worth having the other 2 serve actions, because sometimes changing to a BH serve or Reverse pendulum reaps rewards. something to throw into the mix if an opponent is returning your preferred serves well. They may not be as aggressive or return well to a lower %, its strange that a player can struggle with a different serve action, angle of serve, even a change of serve starting position can cause trouble!!

one take away for me is you are clear which serve(s) most likely give you a 3rd ball you understand & can see well to open

btw, do you have a fast, deep dead (at the other's middle)?

how about a short, low spin (or dead)? did you watch the craig bryant video wrighty put up earlier post?

 

[LDM7]

Didn’t do any ‘swipe’ pushes in the “serve, stumble, recover, stagger, bounce on your arse vid”!!!! That session was 6 or so weeks ago, last session was 2 weeks past, when playing the ‘only 1 server’ games, I threw a couple in , if you get em right they skid through carrying a good amount of side spin. I’ll try and record some on Thursday when we have team training.

=> yah, if possible, i want 2 see "swipe push"

Yeah, got a low spin or dead ball hook serve. I try and pat the ball forward rather than cutting under or flicking up. Works for me.
Adam Bobrow does a topspin serve that he sort of just lets the ball bounce off the rubber, bat angle about 45 degrees. Then add a bit of fake motion, people see a bat angle associated with backspin, push, ball pops up nicely!! Wham bam thank you mam!!!!
If you toss the ball up hold bat at 45 degrees and let the ball land on the rubber without moving the bat, the ball will bounce off with light topspin on it.
Do it again, but pat forward slightly and it takes some of the spin off.
Do it again, and this time cut down and forward at 45 degrees (chop down)backspin.
And Again, keeping the 45 degree bat angle flick bat up and backwards at 45 degrees, topspin.

=> man, i have a headache jst reading this ... Huh ?!

There are some good servers out there that pull the bat backwards after / at impact as part of the serve motion. They can then have an almost flat bat, contacting the bottom of the ball and put either backspin or topspin on the ball.
flatish bat, contact ball when bat is moving forward = backspin, contact ball as bat is moving backward = topspin. Split second timing and loads of practice!!!

=> i wonde the "bat moving backwards" pull back part involves wrist only, elbow or both wrist and elbow?

For sure the serve is to get the point started and discourage an attack, so half long and short is good, half long is better, as the push return is likely to be longer, so you get more opportunities to open up. Short, and they can push short return, so less likely to get a 3rd ball attack.

=> hey ah, would you consider a double bouncing ball as a short serve?

=> i thot it was interesting a service masterclass explained 31" from the net < "danger zone" < 7" to the baseline (sry in US inches)

=> i.e. a serve over the net up to 31" is safe (mostly short), then followed by 16" of danger zone (easier to attack), then last 7" are good too

A half long serve, one with a deceptive serve action, a serve that is hard to read, gives opponent a double whammy of decision making and uncertainty, is it just long enough to loop???? Is it back, back and side, top or no spin????
uncertainty can also discourage an attack.

=> true that, uncertainty discourages the other to attack (both in serve return or during rally)

 

[IB66]

 

[LDM7]

i can do something with this ... Good looking out IB 💪 🏓

 

[blahness]

I do my FH pendulum disguise in a very similar way too. This is one of the best ways to disguise the FH pendulum because you use almost the same racket angle to serve both sideunder and sidetopspin. Furthermore, because you're going forward when serving sideunderspin and side + backwards when serving sidetopspin, this makes the sideunderspin faster and sidetopspin slower which adds to the deception.

 

[dingyibvs]

Hi team

I’ve a couple of videos that I would appreciate feedback on pls.

1st one is BH loop V4 backspin and 2nd one is FH loop vs under spin.

My big focus on FH following recent comments on here, was to involve less upper arm and shoulder and drive spin through forearm and wrist - keeping elbow low.

Before I invest further time grooving this, does this look fundamentally closer to that?

FH

BH

Thanks all.

Hey @Wrighty67, I have been practicing my BH loop vs. backspin for quite a while now, and recently just had an epiphany which has made a world of difference. I thought back to your videos, seeming to remember that you were making the same mistake I was, so I dug this up to share my findings.

You see how your right shoulder dips below the left shoulder as you reach the end of your backswing? That's the old way to do it and the modern way is much better and easier! Modern BH loop has the right shoulder slightly higher, and this is an evolution from the banana flick which does this in a much more exaggerated fashion. Doing the BH loop against backspin this way allows for a smaller motion, which leads to better consistency, and the best part is that you can easily translate this same motion to looping over the table (banana flicks) or looping half long.

See this point where FZD loops a heavy push from LJH for example:

The key to this is that your right shoulder should lead your elbow, and your elbow leads your wrist, and they activate in that sequence (yes, I know the elbow is actually in front of the shoulder, but the activation sequence and the feel is shoulder -> elbow -> wrist). When you push your shoulder and elbow forward, the ball will come closer to your body, so don't be afraid of that. You'll be looping the ball closer to your body than before, and that's perfectly fine. As mentioned before, it's the same stroke used for banana flick as well, and it's used in an even more exaggerated fashion. You see how during banana flicks people push their left side all the way down when flicking backspins.

Another key thing is to make sure you accelerate at the very last second. You can try accelerating later or later, or you can try intentionally accelerating too late and then do it earlier and earlier. When you get the timing right, you'll feel your rubber catch the ball and throw it out. This again goes for both looping backspins and the banana flick.

 

[Wrighty67]

Hey @Wrighty67, I have been practicing my BH loop vs. backspin for quite a while now, and recently just had an epiphany which has made a world of difference. I thought back to your videos, seeming to remember that you were making the same mistake I was, so I dug this up to share my findings.

You see how your right shoulder dips below the left shoulder as you reach the end of your backswing? That's the old way to do it and the modern way is much better and easier! Modern BH loop has the right shoulder slightly higher, and this is an evolution from the banana flick which does this in a much more exaggerated fashion. Doing the BH loop against backspin this way allows for a smaller motion, which leads to better consistency, and the best part is that you can easily translate this same motion to looping over the table (banana flicks) or looping half long.

See this point where FZD loops a heavy push from LJH for example:

The key to this is that your right shoulder should lead your elbow, and your elbow leads your wrist, and they activate in that sequence (yes, I know the elbow is actually in front of the shoulder, but the activation sequence and the feel is shoulder -> elbow -> wrist). When you push your shoulder and elbow forward, the ball will come closer to your body, so don't be afraid of that. You'll be looping the ball closer to your body than before, and that's perfectly fine. As mentioned before, it's the same stroke used for banana flick as well, and it's used in an even more exaggerated fashion. You see how during banana flicks people push their left side all the way down when flicking backspins.

Another key thing is to make sure you accelerate at the very last second. You can try accelerating later or later, or you can try intentionally accelerating too late and then do it earlier and earlier. When you get the timing right, you'll feel your rubber catch the ball and throw it out. This again goes for both looping backspins and the banana flick.

First of all - thank you for thinking of me, that's very kind..

I find that very interesting, and something I had not thought about before now - if I visualise the banana flick then I can totally feel this movement so will try and practice it tonight. Does it also apply to BH topspin in general vs block or as counter?

 

[dingyibvs]

First of all - thank you for thinking of me, that's very kind..

I find that very interesting, and something I had not thought about before now - if I visualise the banana flick then I can totally feel this movement so will try and practice it tonight. Does it also apply to BH topspin in general vs block or as counter?

Not as much for topspin and counter. When you're looping close to the table on the FH side, it's more of a right to left movement as well, but the rest of the motion still applies in terms of leading with your shoulder/elbow and letting the ball come closer to you. You just won't have the right shoulder higher.

Like you mentioned, this movement is not very foreign at all given its similarity to the banana flick. For me, the hardest part was to let the ball come closer to my body. If you think about the banana flick, it's not very effective if you reach your arm out to do it, which is why it's so hard to flick a really short serve - you really need to lean your body forward to get a good flick. It's similar here, you need to move forward and let the ball come close to your belly to get a good shot. Even when I've done it well in practice, it was still a bit scary to do that in real games.

All in all though, in less than a week of practicing this shot, it's already made a big difference in my game from both looping backspins to returning services. I remember seeing your videos and thinking we were struggling to learn the same thing, and I feel like I've finally found my solution, so I really hope this'll work for you as well!

 

[LDM7]

i'm going to shadow in @dingyibvs depiction of bh flick/topspin open

recently i have garnered some sucess during pratice, then to a lesser degree over friendly matches

tournaments - not so much (to even attempt)

the fear to fail is real, holding me progress back

to me - the bh strike zone is more illusive than its counterpart, smaller and difficult to locate (at times)

need reps ... more reps

 

[dingyibvs]

i'm going to shadow in @dingyibvs depiction of bh flick/topspin open

recently i have garnered some sucess during pratice, then to a lesser degree over friendly matches

tournaments - not so much (to even attempt)

the fear to fail is real, holding me progress back

to me - the bh strike zone is more illusive than its counterpart, smaller and difficult to locate (at times)

need reps ... more reps

For the BH strike zone, this is the way I see it. The strike zone should form a diagonal line in front of you, getting farther in front the more the ball is to the BH side, and closer to your body the more to your FH side.

This is because the elbow is the key joint for the BH shot. The more you reach to your left, the further forward your elbow will be, and vice versa. You always want to strike the ball the same distance from your elbow. Keeping track of that though can be difficult, so I just try to imagine an invisible diagonal line in front of me, and try to hit the ball when it reaches that line. If it comes to my middle/elbow area, then it'll hit the line closer to my body, but if it goes to the wide BH side, it'll reach the line more in front.

Finding the line is not hard, you know when you hit the shot just right. You'll feel your racket catching the ball and releasing it with power. Once you find it, just try to hit every ball when it reaches the line. Use your body to adjust for height, and move your feet so to best align the line with the ball.

 

[Wrighty67]

For the BH strike zone, this is the way I see it. The strike zone should form a diagonal line in front of you, getting farther in front the more the ball is to the BH side, and closer to your body the more to your FH side.

This is because the elbow is the key joint for the BH shot. The more you reach to your left, the further forward your elbow will be, and vice versa. You always want to strike the ball the same distance from your elbow. Keeping track of that though can be difficult, so I just try to imagine an invisible diagonal line in front of me, and try to hit the ball when it reaches that line. If it comes to my middle/elbow area, then it'll hit the line closer to my body, but if it goes to the wide BH side, it'll reach the line more in front.

Finding the line is not hard, you know when you hit the shot just right. You'll feel your racket catching the ball and releasing it with power. Once you find it, just try to hit every ball when it reaches the line. Use your body to adjust for height, and move your feet so to best align the line with the ball.

Good pointers - having worked on this last night I continue to find the biggest challenge on BH loops (vs back and top) is timing the wrist release to ensure that the ball lands on the table. My most common mistake is to hit the ball long as a result of not getting the wrist fully released at the right time and therefore not closing the shot off properly and sometimes in conjunction with a too high vs forward trajectory.

 

[dingyibvs]

Good pointers - having worked on this last night I continue to find the biggest challenge on BH loops (vs back and top) is timing the wrist release to ensure that the ball lands on the table. My most common mistake is to hit the ball long as a result of not getting the wrist fully released at the right time and therefore not closing the shot off properly and sometimes in conjunction with a too high vs forward trajectory.

In the beginning I couldn't figure out exactly what went wrong with each shot. Did I aim too high/low? Was my for off? Was my timing off? Too many variables. I found that it helps if you get the timing right first. If that's not right, then don't even bother trying to figure it out. Adjust the timing until you get it right, and then you eliminate one major variable. I've also found that form isn't a big deal in the beginning, it's really a part of aim, get the timing right and you can use a variety of forms to adjust aim and land the shot. Obviously some forms will allow you to generate more quality, but that's for later down the line.

The reason to focus on timing first is because you can feel it when you get it right. That's a variable you can eliminate with 100% certainty. So make sure you get that catch and release feeling first, then everything else becomes easy.

 

[NextLevel]

Good pointers - having worked on this last night I continue to find the biggest challenge on BH loops (vs back and top) is timing the wrist release to ensure that the ball lands on the table. My most common mistake is to hit the ball long as a result of not getting the wrist fully released at the right time and therefore not closing the shot off properly and sometimes in conjunction with a too high vs forward trajectory.

I think it helps a lot if you can play the loop without wrist action. If your swing trajectory works without wrist, the wrist is just extra quality and insurance over the same window and largely in the same direction as the swing without wrist action. Wrist action is largely waving the fingers anyways in a relaxed manner (flexion/extension), the supination is not really something you should need precise timing for if I am making sense and that is what for many people makes it look like the wrist is doing amazing things.

And for all things spin oriented, try to follow the shape of the ball. Makes it harder to bash into the ball uunprofitable. When you don't follow the shape, easier to lift balls off the table or smack them into the net.

 

[Wrighty67]

I think it helps a lot if you can play the loop without wrist action. If your swing trajectory works without wrist, the wrist is just extra quality and insurance over the same window and largely in the same direction as the swing without wrist action. Wrist action is largely waving the fingers anyways in a relaxed manner (flexion/extension), the supination is not really something you should need precise timing for if I am making sense and that is what for many people makes it look like the wrist is doing amazing things.

And for all things spin oriented, try to follow the shape of the ball. Makes it harder to bash into the ball uunprofitable. When you don't follow the shape, easier to lift balls off the table or smack them into the net.

I was watching the video below where he puts a strong emphasis on wrist movement, then forearm movement - how does that fit in with what you are explaining?

watch

 

[Der_Echte]

I can say this about use of wrist when learning BH shots... it is difficult enough to get elbow out there and stabilize it... and it is difficult enough to make a stroke using the lower arm while NOT moving the upper arm... it is difficult enough just to effectively JUDGE where the ball is going and get there in time with leverage to give a chance to hit in your strike zone... it is difficult enough to time the ball arrival into the strike zone...

So with all those moving pieces already inherent in any BH shot WHY.... WHY... oh WHY to coaches advocate to teach big use of wrist early in development ??? WHY

It is ANOTHER moving piece that is probably the most difficult to time.

That is why I advocate in the early phase to shorten the swing, slow down the power some, but focus on seeing the ball and getting into position with leverage on time.... that is the number one skill on any shot.

Early on, things should be simplified with the fewest amount of moving parts so the player can see the ball, be in position and get ball into the strike zone. This skill must be developed first before one can profit from the use of wrist.

Get the habit of eliminating excess motion, learn to be direct, efficient. Get the timing of the shot right, the right swing plane given the ball...

THEN when that is well trained, it si way easier to develop the use of wrist for more spinny shots.

Trying to do it all at the same time learning is a recipe for failure... repeated failure that is de-motivating.

 

[NextLevel]

I was watching the video below where he puts a strong emphasis on wrist movement, then forearm movement - how does that fit in with what you are explaining?

watch

Yah, such videos when they are not well subtitled can be hard to explain though I can guess the intent. Table tennis is a complicated sport. My trying to explain what I think in terms of that video would be a complete disservice.

For me, I just think in terms of swing planes and paths. I want to make a ball do something, I think about what the path I should swing through to make the ball do what I want given the incoming spin. I test swing paths/planes until something works. A professional would probably use more legs and less upper arm to do what I do with more upper arm and less legs.

I focus first and foremost on safe ball contact. As I explained in the backhand topspin tutorials are useless thread, the KJH video where he advocates making thick contact and supinating is how I generally approach the backhand. Conceptually it is a form a mountain around the ball approach, but doing so while trying to find a contact point on the ball that reduces the risk of whiffing.

You can do this purely with the forearm without any wrist, even without making a backhand grip. Might require more shoulder or body action. So the stroke that the guy is doing in the video purely with wrist - you can lock your wrist and do that with the forearm as well. Once you can do it without wrist, and by swinging the fore arm around the ball, you can cock the wrist (backhand grip) and do the same thing and not release the wrist. Then finally, add the wrist to increase the speed of the stroke in the plane/path you want to swing in. While it is reasonable to say that the wrist is for adding spin and the forearm/body for adding spin, I sometimes think of what racket is doing as one continuous movement with the turning effect being the spin and the thickness of the contact adding speed. I need to figure out how much I need to put into spin. If I need to put a lot, I increase the turning effect. If I need to put less, I don't focus on it as much.

Sorry I can't quite answer your question in terms of the video, but I hope this helps. The biggest mistake people make at the lower levels IMHO (and I am at the lower levels for context) is trying to be aggressive with power against heavy backspin when just spinning up the ball puts the opponent in trouble if they (opponent) have a good push and are not used to punch blocking and counterlooping. I have embarrassed players who have decent counterloops just by using slow openings repeatedly and they keep thinking at some point they will adequately compensate and they fail to do so over the course of the match.

 

[NextLevel]

I can say this about use of wrist when learning BH shots... it is difficult enough to get elbow out there and stabilize it... and it is difficult enough to make a stroke using the lower arm while NOT moving the upper arm... it is difficult enough just to effectively JUDGE where the ball is going and get there in time with leverage to give a chance to hit in your strike zone... it is difficult enough to time the ball arrival into the strike zone...

So with all those moving pieces already inherent in any BH shot WHY.... WHY... oh WHY to coaches advocate to teach big use of wrist early in development ??? WHY

It is ANOTHER moving piece that is probably the most difficult to time.

That is why I advocate in the early phase to shorten the swing, slow down the power some, but focus on seeing the ball and getting into position with leverage on time.... that is the number one skill on any shot.

Early on, things should be simplified with the fewest amount of moving parts so the player can see the ball, be in position and get ball into the strike zone. This skill must be developed first before one can profit from the use of wrist.

Get the habit of eliminating excess motion, learn to be direct, efficient. Get the timing of the shot right, the right swing plane given the ball...

THEN when that is well trained, it si way easier to develop the use of wrist for more spinny shots.

Trying to do it all at the same time learning is a recipe for failure... repeated failure that is de-motivating.

I don't mind it either way, as long as the coach has a serious plan for whoever they are teaching. It is when the coach doesn't that this causes massive problems.

 

[Der_Echte]

Adult learners try to do all steps and motions (with excessive motion) on nearly all shots and wonder why they are not progressing !!!

It is no-shyt Sherlock situation if you ever saw one. Trying to master complicated muti-moving pieces shots requiring precision timing and explosion by means of doing all steps full speed un-isolated bring obvious dificulty that is not needed and gets in the way.

That is why I say many adult learners do not develop because of this... often it is their own fault... often, they get coaching from someone who is not an effective adult coach it is that coach's fault too.

Thank God @dingyibvs met an effective adult coach.

The sign of such is that the player very soon afterwards within a couple months is night and day different visually by anyone of any eyesight, even Mr Magoo's eyesight could see the difference if he saw @dingyibvs

 

[dingyibvs]

I was watching the video below where he puts a strong emphasis on wrist movement, then forearm movement - how does that fit in with what you are explaining?

watch

That's an excellent question. Wrist is more flexible as it can rotate across multiple axes, it fits with what @NextLevel is saying about following the contour of the ball as the wrist can do that the best.

However, give this a try. Reach your arm all the way out so that your elbow joint is straight, and try to follow the contour of the ball with your racket using only your wrist. Then bend your elbow so you're at your optimal hitting position, and try the same thing. You'll quickly realize that the wrist action required to follow the contour of the ball is much more natural and easier to do when the racket is closer to you (i.e. when your elbow is bent).

What this shows is that you need to find the ball with the optimal elbow/forearm position first. As I described in the diagonal line concept, that optimal position changes depending on where the ball is at. When I started working on my BH, my breakthrough occurred when a coach made me do exactly what @NextLevel advocated in his follow up post, which is to find a way to strike the ball as effectively as possible while using as little wrist as possible first (the feel is catch and release the ball). That allowed me to find the optimal position for your elbow/forearm.

Every time I practice, every time I warm up, I still start with BH hit first and find that optimal elbow/forearm position. When I'm doing that, I'm not actively using my wrist, I simply relax it in the backswing and tighten it minimally at contact. Only after I've found that, and it's really only the last couple of weeks (I started this new process >4 months ago) that I can find it right off the bat, I start actively using my wrist.

The guy in the video (Fang Yinchi) said it himself in another video that he regrets the approach he used earlier on in his career, which is to find the correct technique through quality. Instead, he said he should've tried to find the correct technique by searching for the feeling of catching and releasing the ball. IMO he's correct on this account, and IMO the best way for people to start is to learn the BH hit first.

To draw an analogy, if you hire a track coach to help you run faster, he'll teach you the running techniques. But what if you don't even know how to walk? The techniques he teaches wouldn't really be helpful then. The BH hit is like walking, this is something folks like Fang learned when they were probably 3 years old. He wouldn't be able to teach it any better than you or I can teach someone who only knows how to crawl to walk. As adult learners, we need to learn how to walk first, and I definitely favor the approach by @Der_Echte if you're interested enough in TT as to post on this message board regularly.

 

[Wrighty67]

That's an excellent question. Wrist is more flexible as it can rotate across multiple axes, it fits with what @NextLevel is saying about following the contour of the ball as the wrist can do that the best.

However, give this a try. Reach your arm all the way out so that your elbow joint is straight, and try to follow the contour of the ball with your racket using only your wrist. Then bend your elbow so you're at your optimal hitting position, and try the same thing. You'll quickly realize that the wrist action required to follow the contour of the ball is much more natural and easier to do when the racket is closer to you (i.e. when your elbow is bent).

What this shows is that you need to find the ball with the optimal elbow/forearm position first. As I described in the diagonal line concept, that optimal position changes depending on where the ball is at. When I started working on my BH, my breakthrough occurred when a coach made me do exactly what @NextLevel advocated in his follow up post, which is to find a way to strike the ball as effectively as possible while using as little wrist as possible first (the feel is catch and release the ball). That allowed me to find the optimal position for your elbow/forearm.

Every time I practice, every time I warm up, I still start with BH hit first and find that optimal elbow/forearm position. When I'm doing that, I'm not actively using my wrist, I simply relax it in the backswing and tighten it minimally at contact. Only after I've found that, and it's really only the last couple of weeks (I started this new process >4 months ago) that I can find it right off the bat, I start actively using my wrist.

The guy in the video (Fang Yinchi) said it himself in another video that he regrets the approach he used earlier on in his career, which is to find the correct technique through quality. Instead, he said he should've tried to find the correct technique by searching for the feeling of catching and releasing the ball. IMO he's correct on this account, and IMO the best way for people to start is to learn the BH hit first.

To draw an analogy, if you hire a track coach to help you run faster, he'll teach you the running techniques. But what if you don't even know how to walk? The techniques he teaches wouldn't really be helpful then. The BH hit is like walking, this is something folks like Fang learned when they were probably 3 years old. He wouldn't be able to teach it any better than you or I can teach someone who only knows how to crawl to walk. As adult learners, we need to learn how to walk first, and I definitely favor the approach by @Der_Echte if you're interested enough in TT as to post on this message board regularly.

Thanks - makes sense. I need to focus on finding and identifying that catch and release feeling I guess. When you say BH hit - what exactly do you mean (Flat hit or more open blade topspin?)