San Francisco looking for training partner.

[SDC]

Ok - here's the measurments

Golden 5.73mm
CNT 5.78mm
2011 5.8mm
2019 5.83

Two pics
Top one is GV on top and CNT blade underneath
Below is 2019 on top and GV underneath

Hope these are ok.
View attachment 33423View attachment 33424

Thank you! They are ok, more than good enough for me to understand that I have no idea what's going on 😂. I see (maybe) a different glue line, but apart from that everything checks out.

By the way, they are close in weight but the golden supposedly has weight in the handle, do you feel any difference in balance between the two?

 

[Wrighty67]

Thank you! They are ok, more than good enough for me to understand that I have no idea what's going on 😂. I see (maybe) a different glue line, but apart from that everything checks out.

By the way, they are close in weight but the golden supposedly has weight in the handle, do you feel any difference in balance between the two?

Yes, I feel the balance is lower in the Golden and overall it feels lighter in hand.

 

[SlowPower]

I dont really believe in a substantial other blade. I think the core is less dense, then weight is added to the handle. Good marketing.
I once had a vis that played like people are talking about the golden vis is playing. Very forgiving and absorbing- goes in the direction of balsa core blades. It was 84g- add 8g to the handle and there is a golden vis.
Maybe they use another glue for the core (wood glue instead of epoxy)?

 

[SDC]

There is an inverse proportion between mass and stiffness, so lighter cores often have a higher frequency, but only if the top layer is slightly stiffer as well. That would justify the same frequency reading for a lower mass blade. However, such a blade would also have a higher base speed and less overall power. Every single review reports the opposite, lower base speed and more power, so no, that's not it. They don't use epoxy normally for the core, you can clearly see the glue line. Also, the core is less dense for these particular blades, there are reports of heavier blades as well.

They are doing something else with the composition, I have no doubt about it, but I still don't know what it is. Just because I cannot do something, doesn't mean others can't.

 

[dingyibvs]

Thank you! They are ok, more than good enough for me to understand that I have no idea what's going on 😂. I see (maybe) a different glue line, but apart from that everything checks out.

By the way, they are close in weight but the golden supposedly has weight in the handle, do you feel any difference in balance between the two?

On a Chinese bilibili channel, this one reviewer/vendor said he talked to some blade makers, and they think besides using a higher quality wood (he asserts that high quality wood is in shorter supply than before) that the golden Vis also uses an extra glue layer with the composite layer. To compensate for the weight of the extra glue layer weight is added to the handle to keep the balance the same.

 

[SDC]

To me that also doesn't make much sense. Higher quality wood? Ok, they better do it, for that price... But an extra glue layer it's not the reason.

Most small blade makers and even some bigger brands (soulspin) build composite blades like this. They take the raw composite fabric, impregnate it with resin, and bond it with wood at the same time it cures. Large brands don't have this process, they pre-laminate the fabric, let it cure, and once it has hardened they bond it with the wood layers. It's much easier to mass produce this way. I know that Butterfly uses this process, so even in the regular Vis, the "extra" glue layer is already there. I use both processes, and they feel veeery different, each process has its advantage/disadvantage and works better with specific types of fabrics. But gluing the fabric after it has cured introduces another variable (what glue is being used?), besides all of the other variables that already exist in the "normal" procedure. This is the secret sauce, the lamination of the ALC.

 

[dingyibvs]

To me that also doesn't make much sense. Higher quality wood? Ok, they better do it, for that price... But an extra glue layer it's not the reason.

Most small blade makers and even some bigger brands (soulspin) build composite blades like this. They take the raw composite fabric, impregnate it with resin, and bond it with wood at the same time it cures. Large brands don't have this process, they pre-laminate the fabric, let it cure, and once it has hardened they bond it with the wood layers. It's much easier to mass produce this way. I know that Butterfly uses this process, so even in the regular Vis, the "extra" glue layer is already there. I use both processes, and they feel veeery different, each process has its advantage/disadvantage and works better with specific types of fabrics. But gluing the fabric after it has cured introduces another variable (what glue is being used?), besides all of the other variables that already exist in the "normal" procedure. This is the secret sauce, the lamination of the ALC.

Sorry, I didn't remember it quite right. I went back and watched his video again, he actually said that Kiri doesn't vary too much in terms of "good" vs. "bad", so wood quality isn't a major factor. He said that he asked some TT blade factories as well as some equipment enthusiasts who make their own blades and disassemble blades, and that their consensus opinion is that the composite layers undergo a second round of hardening, I suppose using extra resin.

How that may affect the blade I wouldn't know. According to the guy I'm referring to, he's played it and has talked to some professional players who were/are using it as their primary blade, the difference isn't too big. They all feel that the blade is a bit stiffer, with a bit more power at mid-long range, and not very different to the regular Vis close to the table.

 

[SDC]

Sorry, I didn't remember it quite right. I went back and watched his video again, he actually said that Kiri doesn't vary too much in terms of "good" vs. "bad", so wood quality isn't a major factor. He said that he asked some TT blade factories as well as some equipment enthusiasts who make their own blades and disassemble blades, and that their consensus opinion is that the composite layers undergo a second round of hardening, I suppose using extra resin.

How that may affect the blade I wouldn't know. According to the guy I'm referring to, he's played it and has talked to some professional players who were/are using it as their primary blade, the difference isn't too big. They all feel that the blade is a bit stiffer, with a bit more power at mid-long range, and not very different to the regular Vis close to the table.

This is true, kiri varies between bad and reasonable, but it's not a great wood in terms of properties (except for lightness).

OK, now this makes more sense and it's in line with what I was thinking, the difference seems to be in the ALC lamination.

 

[K.K]

@hipnotic do you know how the timo boll ALC differs in that realm? i always noticed that the timo boll plays different then viscaria / fzd alc / zjk alc but everybody said it must only be due to different weight. but can't really believe that, because in my time i played a lot of different models of viscaria with ´different rubbers and they all shared the same feel, but timo boll was always different and was less bouncy and stiffer over the table but had more power and dwell when you go for big shots. so my question would be, how they do it? if you compare both lookwise they seam identical

 

[banbekas]

Seems like Scrubjesus was right all along that Golden Viscaria is truly that good.

 

[Lazer]

Seems like Scrubjesus was right all along that Golden Viscaria is truly that good.

It’s probably a great blade but scrubs claims are hilarious…

Cheers
L-zr

 

[K.K]

Seems like Scrubjesus was right all along that Golden Viscaria is truly that good.

no it's just interesting how different the exact same composition can be.
i my opinion golden viscaria is a big scam for that price. over 800€ for a blade? you can adapt to most material as long as you play long enough with it. and for players where every lil small 0,5% upgrade matters will get this blade anyway for free.
so a blade just for rich folks who want to feel fancy

 

[Silver Server]

no it's just interesting how different the exact same composition can be.
i my opinion golden viscaria is a big scam for that price. over 800€ for a blade? you can adapt to most material as long as you play long enough with it. and for players where every lil small 0,5% upgrade matters will get this blade anyway for free.
so a blade just for rich folks who want to feel fancy

I wouldn't really say its a scam since the original price was $300 from BTY and only offered in China, but you can say it was a cash grab. For everyone paying over that upwards of $700-800 thats on them if they feel it's worth it lol.

 

[rbtitco]

The

no it's just interesting how different the exact same composition can be.
i my opinion golden viscaria is a big scam for that price. over 800€ for a blade? you can adapt to most material as long as you play long enough with it. and for players where every lil small 0,5% upgrade matters will get this blade anyway for free.
so a blade just for rich folks who want to feel fancy .

One massive downside to playing a Golden Vis, that no one is mentioning, is that you absolutely can't lose, because you will never hear the end of the shit talking lol

 

[mcfly]

The

One massive downside to playing a Golden Vis, that no one is mentioning, is that you absolutely can't lose, because you will never hear the end of the shit talking lol

same reason for the acoustic being slow.. because it is not electric!

 

[andzejgolot]

This is true, kiri varies between bad and reasonable, but it's not a great wood in terms of properties (except for lightness).

OK, now this makes more sense and it's in line with what I was thinking, the difference seems to be in the ALC lamination.

I think there is more about alc and ayous gluing process.
I try to say something smart, but I used Revoldia CNF and I had around 20 Viscarias and even Vispower from Ping Pong/Double Day. Why I wrote something about Revoldia and Viscaria... For me Revoldia is a lot softer and has similar composition to viscaria but what makes Revoldia special ? Super soft and sweet touch + extra power from distance. I Tried connect the dot from your lamination and my 'glue based on methyl cellulose ' when I dont know anything about methyl cellulose. I dont think that they add some super thin of cnf dust to try glue the best blades but my Darker Avantir as 5+4 with CNF and ALC is super soft too and it has incredible power from distance. Maybe you have more knowledge to connect glue, cnf, ayous and alc to find 'hidden truth'

 

[disaster3]

First scar, it really hurts🥹🥹
Need to be careful when changing rubbers. I should peel off from the opposite side and I need to add a drop of superglue to secure it.

 

[SDC]

@hipnotic do you know how the timo boll ALC differs in that realm? i always noticed that the timo boll plays different then viscaria / fzd alc / zjk alc but everybody said it must only be due to different weight. but can't really believe that, because in my time i played a lot of different models of viscaria with ´different rubbers and they all shared the same feel, but timo boll was always different and was less bouncy and stiffer over the table but had more power and dwell when you go for big shots. so my question would be, how they do it? if you compare both lookwise they seam identical

I get what your saying, that feeling has been associated with TB ALC, and most that I've tried shared those characteristics. However, more recent models seem to be more homogeneous with the other outer ALC models. I can only guess what they are doing, my observations are mere conjecture because I've haven't actually seen it with my eyes. Just because blades share the same structure, doesn't mean they will feel or play the same, I've said this many times. It depends on the construction: wood selection, glue type, clamping pressure, and in the case of composite blades the variables increase even more. Just because the fabric is the same, doesn't mean the outcome is the same, the lamination process is just as important. In the case of the TB ALC, I always found they were more head heavy and stiffer. In the factory, they can simply direct the heavier (denser) Koto outers and Kiri cores to a dedicated TB ALC line. Those blades will play slightly different than the rest. Butterfly also glues their blades all at the same time in big piles, the blades from the extremities will suffer more pressure, some pressure is lost towards the middle due to material deformation, so those blades will also have a slightly harder feeling. A lot of things that can be done, but if they are doing it or not, I can't be sure.

 

[SDC]

I think there is more about alc and ayous gluing process.
I try to say something smart, but I used Revoldia CNF and I had around 20 Viscarias and even Vispower from Ping Pong/Double Day. Why I wrote something about Revoldia and Viscaria... For me Revoldia is a lot softer and has similar composition to viscaria but what makes Revoldia special ? Super soft and sweet touch + extra power from distance. I Tried connect the dot from your lamination and my 'glue based on methyl cellulose ' when I dont know anything about methyl cellulose. I dont think that they add some super thin of cnf dust to try glue the best blades but my Darker Avantir as 5+4 with CNF and ALC is super soft too and it has incredible power from distance. Maybe you have more knowledge to connect glue, cnf, ayous and alc to find 'hidden truth'

CNF is bascially Cellulose Nanofiber mixed with a PVA matrix, so it's super soft and elastic, nothing like ALC. No secrect there.

 

[andzejgolot]

CNF is bascially Cellulose Nanofiber mixed with a PVA matrix, so it's super soft and elastic, nothing like ALC. No secrect there.

I know company has blade with 0.03mm layer of cnf so it can be secret here. No lamination needed.